1952 XK120 SE Roadster Parts Needed - VIN# 672233

Hi Clyde,

I had a 1953 XK20 built in 1953 but registered as a 1954. applied for a Jaguar Heritage Trust Certificate showing the build date and took it to California Dept of Motor Vehicles and asked them to correct my Title. They did it for a $15 change fee. I just sold the 1953 and bought a 1952 672233, which has been the subject of this thread.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays to everyone.

Bob,
To muddy the water a bit more, I have 672606 built July 21, 1952, registered as a 1953. The car is designated by Jaguar as an SE model with S prefix on the chassis and S suffix on the engine.
Clyde

Bob,
I have a similar situation with my 1952 XK120 VIN 672629. The car has all the SE mods including the "S" suffix on the engine. The chassis number is not clear and I can not verify if the "S" prefix is present. According to the Heritage Trust records my car is not an SE model. They show a build date of July 24. I had given up hope of resolving this so thanks for the helpful discussion.
Bob

Bob just give me a call on the JCNA tech line 888-258-2524 ex#3.

George,

Based on Anders email, my 1952 XK120 OTS 672233 is a standard car that was modified to SE some years ago. That being the case, how will the mods affect "judging"? The only outward modifications will be wire wheels and dual exhaust.

Bob

I recieved the following email from Anders:

Dear Mr Sheridan

Thank you for your e-mail. You should also check whether the engine number has an S suffix; if the car has neither an S prefix to the chassis number, nor an S suffix to the engine number, then it will not show up in the records as an SE model. The first SE was apparently 672150 without an S prefix, the next was S 672373 with an S prefix, and all the cars in between including yours were standard cars. A few later cars to SE specification have no S prefix in the records. The original specification will confirmed on the Heritage Certificate, when you apply for it. I shall look forward to hearing from you,

Kind regards,

Anders Ditlev Clausager
JAGUAR HERITAGE ARCHIVE
Browns Lane
Allesley
Coventry CV5 9DR
tel +44 (0)24 7640 1288
fax +44 (0)24 7640 1123

Robert no problem. It is not that I am at odds with Anders it is that he is spealing of SE cars inwhich Bulletin 110 sets the proper SE cars. Bulletin 95 was what an owner could do and it is impossible to say anything about those cars that is meaningful. The same situation exists with big Healeys and toe 100M. There were a precious few of those cars made by the factory but there are many-many more that were modified with the factory kit (all ex factory). Today the history of those cars gets fuzzy if you only look at the parts and not the numbers.As far as resistance to the possibility I am not but until you get the build sheet it is simply a discussion in which the best information we have is offered. If something "special" happened to this car it will be listed. Good Luck

You're right Bill.
Sorry George & Dick, I am getting more stubborn as I get older. I'll just wait until I hear back from the Heritage Trust and see how they write the car up.

Meanwhile, does anyone want to trade for a mint condition XK120 bonnet for a bonnet with louvers? I understand the louvers help to dissapate heat from the engine compartment..

I'm located near Los Angeles.

Bob, I would not put so much emphasis on the fact that it is or isn't an SE. The fact is it is a beautiful car and if you reassemble it with the same gusto as you are pursuing this issue you will be a happy man. Remember, no one can say with certainty that this was or wasn't a bastard car. Jaguar Cars as well as many manufacturers, were only to happy to entertain special requests from certain people, the fact is if you were in that category you sent them a list of desires and it was fulfilled. Now, if you can prove that any unusual feature was in fact added by Jaguar then, it is original. If not, enjoy what you have!

Where can I see a copy of "Bulletin 95"? Why doesn't Anders cite it in his book and why does he explain it so differently in his book than you do? I am confused.

I have applied for a Heritage Trust Certificate along with a difinitive answer to my question as to whether my car is an early SE as decribed by Anders. Why are you so resistant to the possibility? Are you implying that the official archivist of the Jaguar Heritage Trust misinterpreted Bulletin 95 in his book?

I do have Anders book but do not need it. Anders is using the exact same technical bulletins that I have. Bulletin 95 is key to this entire discussion.

I wonder if Robert is having the same situation that I have with my 1955 XK 140 OTS Jaguar. The Heritage Trust Certificate lists the car as a Jaguar 3.4L XK140 Special Equipment Model - "Less 'C type' head". VIN # A810938DN. - Engine #- G2551-8.
The car has ALL of the "goodies" normally put on the SE models - except for the "C-head" engine - but in the engine rebuild (in 1993), 'C"- type cylinders were reportedly installed in the original engine. The car still has the original engine, however.

Robert, I would suggest that you obtain the Heritage Trust Certificate for your car if you have not already done so.

Jerry Ellison

George,
Thanks again for trying to clear up confusion.

Do you have access to book called "Jaguar XK120 in Detail" by Anders Ditley Clausager, Chief Arcivest of the Jaguar-Daimler Heritage Trust? Page 105 and 193 describe each Production Change in detail.

Beginning with page 105,

May/Jul 1952 describes the "gradual introduction of the Special Equipment model". Page 193 Chassis 672150 states "This is the first car marked "SE" for Special Equipment in the factory Car Record Book, although the chassis number and engine numbers lack the S prefix and suffix."

I am trying to verify if my car 672233 is also marked "SE" in the factory Car Book, as it has all of the SE modifications.

S 672373 The first car with S prefix/suffix letters in the factory Car Record Book.

No reference is made to "Technical Bulletin 95"

I am confused - the XK120 Jaguar in Detail book seems to imply that some early cars produced between 672150 and S 672373 were SE models, even though they did not have the S prefix/suffix as you and Dick insist upon. Can you or someone else shed more light?

Bob

Robert I think what may be adding to your confusion is the way Jaguar issued "performance" items to the cars. Technical bulletin 95 started the up rating of the engine and those changes along with more upgrades effectively made the car similar to what would become the SE version. In the bulletin Dick cited Jaguar formalized the SE but made it clear that there were suffix placed on the cars/engines. Any cars before could have had the mods but not have been issued that way. The other issue is the chassis numbers run in sequence with the prefix/suffix being the only way to determine that--in other the car before a certain number and the car after might have not been SE. Did make a call today and had all the Gable photos looked at. While he had a bonnet strap on one none of the 3 with him show louvers. That was not an uncommon SOCAL mod.

Thanks George.

I guess I will be trading my louvered hood to someone who wants one.

I will pursue the question with the Heritage Trust as to whether or not my car is a verifiable SE based on my chassis# 672233, which falls within the range of early SE chassis numbers 672150 and S 672373.

Robert the deduction for driven class is the same as Concours. Special Interest class would have no deduction. As Dick has written what an owner had done to a car does not make it factory issue. Jaguar policy was to place cars in the hands of famous owners. Had mr Gable wanted a louvered bonnet I am sure that would have been done but it would still be one off and would not grant license to anyone who wanted to do it later (for concours).

Hey William,

I got your cell phone message and I didn't any phone in the van.

Dick, I guess the only way I will nkow is to contact the Heritage Trust and see what the factory Car Record Book says about 672233. I'll post the results if and when I find out. Regarding the louvers - any point deductions for driven class competion?

Robert,
It would have been possible for the previous owners to have incorporated all of the changes that comprise a Special Equipment model in your car. Unless the JDHT Certificate contains some specific notation regarding SE equipment, I personally don't know how you will be able to document that your car had been brought to SE standard by the factory.

Aside from the wire wheels, knock-offs, and dual exhaust none of the other 12+ items, listed in Service Bulletin #109 as part of the SE equipment, visually distinguish an SE model from any other wire wheel equipped car.

Yes, Clausager does note changes that Clark Gable had done to 672282, after it had been in his custody for some time. However, there is no indication that the car was delivered with those changes or that they were subsequently authorized or done by the factory. There has been extended forum conversation about bonnet louvers and it was concluded that the factory never installed them in production cars. That information was considered conclusive enough that JCNA considers louvers to be non-authentic when they are present.

Please share any information you learn about the early factory SE cars.

Regards,
Dick Cavicke
JCNA, Chief Judge

Bob, in the nicest possible way, YOU ARE NO CLARK GABLE!

Here's my louvered hood

To George and Dick,

I just received a copy of the book titled "Jaguar XK120 in Detail" written by Anders Ditlev Clausager, Chief Archivest of the Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust. The book is based on material from Jaguar factory records and archives to provide historical and statistical information that has never been previously assembled.

I am not trying to plug the book. I am trying to shed light on my earlier question (above) as to whether or not my 1952 XK120 (chassis 672233) is one of the early SE models before the factory began adding the S prefix/suffix numbers.

In addition, my car has a 'louvered hood" which Clark Gable was able to order from the factory on his second XK120 672282 (49 cars after my car). See page 196 of the XK120 in Detail Book. So, I assume that louvered hoods were a factory option.

Page 193 of the XK120 in Detail Book states:

672150, May 1952: this is the first car marked "SE" for "Special Equipment" in the Car Record Book, although the chassis number and engine numbers lack the S prefix and suffix.

S 672373, Jun 1952, the first car with S prefix/suffix letters in the Car Record Book, so it may have been the first proper SE model.

George and Dick -

Based on the research laid out in the XK120 Detail Book by the Chief Archivist fo the Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust, do you both still say my car (672233) is not a true SE because it does not have a S prefix/suffix?

And, if Clark Gable was able to order a 1952 XK120 with a louvered hood from the factory, then there should not be point deductions if I show my 1952 XK120 with a louvered hood.

Once restored, I would like to show my car as an early SE with louvered hood. Please reply with your official opinions. I am going to obtain a Heritage Trust Certificate and also attempt to clarify if the record book shows it to be an early SE.

Respectfully,

Bob Sheridan

Robert in a word--no. There were technical bulletins issued with those upgrades-can provide copies via the shoppe but when the factory did it they marked it as Dick said.

Please excuse "typos & spelling" I was typing too fast

Thanks Dick,

According to research done by the seller (a restoration shop), tis car has all of the special equipment modifications that a SE desiganated modle would have (special cams, lighter flywheel, special from crankshaft dampener, dual exhaust system, 1" thicjk torsin bars and center lock wire wheels. The car was upgraded to SE before the factory designated theses cars with the letter "S" as a prefix to the VIN#. I have also seen some 1950 & 1951 cars that were supposedly called SE models. Can you or anyone else corroborate whether or not some early Jags were built as SE's prior to the "S" designation being added by the factory?

A book called Jaguar XK120 in Detail seems to substantiate this claim.

Robert,
This is not critical information but, when the factory produced SE models were introduced, the Chassis Number was preceded by the letter "S" and the letter "S" also appeared as a suffix to the Engine Number.
Your car may have had some of the SE features added but (if complete) your Chassis and Engine numbers do not indicate that it was a factory SE model.
There's lots of XK assistance available here in the SoCal area and at your club.

S672776

Robert by loom I took it to be the wiring harness not the HT leads. If so all you want can be purchased from any of our sponsored vendors.

Thanks Bill. I'll give you a call on your cell just before come over to drop off Jerry's engine at your shop.

Bob, you need to change your picture! For the exhaust, look up Borla, for the harness, Rhode Island Wiring. Only a few of the early cars had the cables under the carbs, but it made for a neater appearance whilst taking them away from the hot thermostat housing, I will have some info for you on Sunday.