Bolts, Washers, Nuts and Screws - Fasteners

Robert and George, thanks for the ideas. first off let me say that while I will never be a concours guy, I do enjoy them and I admire and respect the work people put into the cars, I love to look at near perfect examples, plus I benefit every time I buy a part for my car, or research a manual. As I know the parts are now being made to much higher standards as a result of the demands for quality "show" parts.

I will go to another show, and I may enter in Driven or peoples choice, or even as a non competitor just so people can look at another E-type! I love sharing stories about going on rallies with my dad in the early 70's and how my wife and I drove this car in our wedding back in 1981.

anyway, I did not sour from the experience, I never expected to win, and I too had a good time talking to owners of all sorts of cars. its the sharing of experiences and interest that keeps the hobby alive.

I strive to keep my car as original and accurate as I can, I have resisted the urge to change things for sake of change. and I am a closet rivet counter, I will actually be trying to make sure the right bolts and screws are in the right place. But I still love driving the car. My Dad missed out in my opinion, he only put about 20,000 miles on the car and most of them in the early 70's. it was driven very sparingly in the 80's and not much at all from then on, it just sat in a climate controlled garage ( thankfully). So I plan to put the miles on the car he missed out on!

Bob

Godfrey,
I fail to see in anything that I said that inferres that you have not been involved in trying to improve our Concours program. I wish you the best on your 120 judging guide, it is a hard task!

Robert..If you are inferring that I choose to complain..without offering any concrete suggestions to improve the situation then I should suggest that you look at my record..I too have been in the 'game' since 1976..and have been active throughout much of that time in the club networks..ill health has in the more recent years been a factor in active participation..however have spent the last twelve years researching the minutae of the XK120 series cars..in the attempt to assemble a credible JCNA 120 judging manual. No easy task.. I am always willing to offer any assistance I can to those who are interested..

Bob - if showing your E-Type isn't your thing, then it isn't your thing. But! Have you considered entering in the "Driven" class? Or even a lower pressure "People's Choice" kind of show. Fun and you meet a lot of nice people. I met a very nice couple parked next to me at a local show last fall. They had a 140FHC w/ a 3.8L E-Type engine. They may have had to borrow my knock-off hammer to keep the car from rolling backwards on the slight incline where we were parked, but when he fired up that E-Type engine, it sounded great and probably went like stink, too! They had a great time talking to folks and weren't the least bit concerned about how their car was viewed against any other Jag there.

Like your E-Type, my 120 was my Dad's. I *LOVE* seeing the great cars at shows, but none of them could be more special to me than this one. I'll continue to improve and preserve it when and where I can, and I know it will never compete with the 100 point cars. But I would never trade for one of them.

FWIW. Enjoy your car!

p.s. - great pic of your car, too!

Bob, I agree with you 100% about your car being a 100 pointer everytime that you take it for a ride! I've told people in our club for years that if you really want to improve your car enter it in a Concours and get a second persons opinion on what's right and wrong, and don't worry about the perfect car sitting next to yours as all of the public walking by are not looking for paint chips etc but just looking at a beautiful car they wish was theirs!

I went to one car show in my two owner e-type.. a car I personally know to be pretty accurate since it was originally my dads car and is low mileage. But I am sure there are a few nuts and bolts that are incorrect. Anyway, I sat there all day waiting to be judged. I felt like Honey boo boo's mom. there were all sorts of beautiful cars around me.

There was an XK-120 in gleaming white, obviously not original paint, the car was perfect, too perfect if you ask me. but it was nice. and of course it took first place. I took second to last.

To me my car is a 100 pointer every time I take it for a drive, every wave from strangers that enjoy seeing it on the road is another 100 points to me.

I am glad people agonize over bolt length and thread types, I use this info as I try to make my car perfect. But I will never enter a JCNA competition. It's just not my thing, I will go to them and admire everyone else's work. and maybe walk away with ideas for how to make my car better.

So thanks to all the rivet counters out there that research this stuff and make it available to the rest of us. and while you may never judge my car, you can rest assured I am going out to the garage to make sure the right bolt is in the right place!

Bob

Good questions George! I don't mean to come off as a "hard nose" but those of us who have been involved in JCNA for many years are, in my case anyway, rather tired of people pointing out defects in the system but are not involved in personally helping correcting any problem areas!
In the engine area of say S1 E-Types about the only visible fasteners are sub frame bolts, header tank bracket, heater mounts etc and any E-Type judge worth his salt should know the correct finish, head markings, difference in depth between American and Brit Nylocks, type of washers( if any) and look at all visible fasteners. On a high point car a judge spends less time writing and more time looking! I would hope that all of the people that are serious about making Concours judging as accurate as possible are involved in helping to make their local clubs Concours a first class and accurate event.

Robert - I have no dog in this fight, so my questions are purely out of curiosity.

When you say, "how difficult it is to judge a car in the alloted time", I infer that things like fastener type, color, head markings, etc. cannot possibly be judged, at least not completely. However, I also know that once you start talking about 990+ point cars, there has to be *some* discriminator - hence the attention to details such as fasteners. Where is the happy medium?

Further (and I've seen this in Ferrari concours judging) - when the older cars were built, was there ever really a "standard" fastener? At Ferrari, nuts, bolts, clips, etc. were whatever the supplier supplied - so long as they met the spec. Many bolts had the prancing horse in the head, some did not. Yellow paint, applied to indicate the final torque had been set, was whatever they had - no "standard" color.

So how is anyone really able to determine what is or was "correct"?

Again, just curious here - not looking to fan any flames. :-)

Thanks!

Godfrey, When you talk of authenticity to myself, George and many others you're singing to the choir! When someone talks of a judge memorizing a decoding chart of diameter, pitch, length etc of Jaguar fasteners I know that he/she has never judged and in all likelyhood has no idea of how difficult it is to judge a car in the alloted time. By the way I've been involved in this "game" for 30 years and cannot recall anyone who considered it "good sport" to get away with authenticity defects on a high point car.

Robert..there are those of us (like me ) who want to restore the car as correctly as possible..not just to the level of what I can slide by an ill informed concours judge.. This is the problem today where a lot of so called 100.00pt cars are nothing of the sort. There are even those among us who seem to regard it as good sport to 'get away' with knowingly incorrect components on their '100.00 pt restorations'..who go on to proudly announce that they sold the car to some unsuspecting buyer for a premium price. This in my mind destroys the credibility of the entire JCNA system. Until this scenario is called out for what it is..then there will be fewer and fewer who will be interested in participating in the championship classes.

Thank you, Allen

I've been looking through the guide. It's a bit frustrating that so many of the fasteners in the parts book are not coded and just have part numbers. Many don't seem so special as to require sourcing as parts.

Steep learning curve for me but I'm getting there!

Allen,
It's obvious that you've never been a Concours judge! Please tell tell me why someone would want to memorize this information when for judging purposes only the stamp on the bolt head and whether the nylocks or American or English style are all that a judge see's in probably 90% of the cases.
Bob

Wicker, Find the fastener guide that Craig has posted, as this is THE ONLY SOURCE that is correct in translating the factory code for a bolt, nut, cotter pin etc. It is foolproof and I have never had a problem since in the twenty years I have used it. Anyone into concours or correctness should be familiar with it. It should be mandatory for any concours judge to know it.
Regards,
Allen

Godfrey,

Thanks for your kind message . I've had a nice reception so far.
Wicker

Never feel embarassed about asking a question..any question..often times it helps us all learn .. There are those who like to feel they know it all..I have often had fun at their expense ;) none of us do! but if we each contribute a little the value is had by all. best of luck with your restoration.

I would think because it's a long bolt, with short threaded section & drilled for a cotter key that's made for a specific application.

Thanks every one. No doubt in a couple years from now I'll look back at this question
with embarrassment but for now the learning curve is steep.

For example if I look up the bolt holding the top of the shock to the frame member it has part number C.9380. This does not seem to be coded giving dimensions, etc. but if I look up the
slotted nut for that bolt (UFN.443/L) it is coded showing dimensions and type. Where does one learn the specifics of the bolt? Or is it considered a special bolt and therefore not coded?

Here is a link to the magical bolt code breaker.

http://www.e-type-lovers.com/memberfiles/bolts.xls

I use it every day while assembling the car. It is pretty cryptic but understandable. Print it out and insert it in the spare parts catalog. Mine is very dog-eared. Some things that I had to figure out was, Setscrew means threads go all the way to the bottom of the bolt head. Bolt means there is a shank. Shaker proof washer is a star washer. The Jaguar split (lock) washer has an outside diameter the same as the dimension between the flats on the bolt head. Modern lock washers have an outside diameter about equal to the diameter of a circle that inscribes the points of the head. It is hard to find replacements for the split washers that look correct, but they do exist.

This code should be easier to find, and you'll be glad that you did.

Craig

Hi Joseph, I don't belueve that I can post a PDF here so you'll have to send me an email so I'll know where to send it.
bobanddarlcomcast.net

Mr. Stevenson If you come across your list I would greatly appreciate a copy. the basket case I'm restoring is either missing hardware or has the wrong type . thank you

Thanks every one. No doubt in a couple years from now I'll look back at this question
with embarrassment but for now the learning curve is steep.

For example if I look up the bolt holding the top of the shock to the frame member it has part number C.9380. This does not seem to be coded giving dimensions, etc. but if I look up the
slotted nut for that bolt (UFN.443/L) it is coded showing dimensions and type. Where does one learn the specifics of the bolt? Or is it considered a special bolt and therefore not coded?

Wicker,
The spare parts Catalogue is the best source for the bolt description as others have noted. If one will look at the part number, the /"xx"R is the length of the bolt. XX being the length in eights. example /7R is a bolt 7/8th of an inch.
Also as you clean them be aware that most of the hardware on '65s are black oxide, not cad or zinc as some restorers finish them.

Wicker, I learned from another forum member that it is all in the parts manual and easy to find. Looking at the various exploded drawings you will notice that the bolts washers etc. are not included on the drawing. Find the part that you are interested in and look that up in the listing. Under that part will be the fasteners and number required, including flat washers, split washers and shake proof washers. It is very thorough, except when it refers to a special bolt, then it is just a part number and will take some research to understand what is "special" about it.

It is the bible when doing re-assembly.

Craig Wright

Craig,

This is very interesting. When I get to the garage tonight I will look at that.

Many thanks

Wicker, I learned from another forum member that it is all in the parts manual and easy to find. Looking at the various exploded drawings you will notice that the bolts washers etc. are not included on the drawing. Find the part that you are interested in and look that up in the listing. Under that part will be the fasteners and number required, including flat washers, split washers and shake proof washers. It is very thorough, except when it refers to a special bolt, then it is just a part number and will take some research to understand what is "special" about it.

It is the bible when doing re-assembly.

Craig Wright

Wicker,
The S1 parts manual gives a discription of the various bolts and I have a list somewhere that tells what , for example. a UFB.131/18R bolt is. I'll dig this list out and if you send an email to bobanddarlcomcast.net I'll send it to you.
Bob

Thanks, George. I also have that publication but it's very limited. For example I look at the bolts used on the bell house and they are different lengths and thread type (course and fine).
What is very important is make certain that a previous owner didn't substitute a lower strength class bolt in a critical location.

If I can not find class and finish information I would at least like to know if washers are toothed or split ring and bolt size, length and thread.
Wicker

Wicker take a look in the shoppe and get the JCNA judges guide to the Series one E. It is in the JCNA publications section.