Driving School

I think Linda and Daniel are on the right track. I'm getting in on this a little late and I don't know the cast for a three day course. I can imagine. We have similar course here in the LA area and they are rather expensive.

If the Concours could arranged to be the first of many activities it would free up the entrants to have fun in their Jaguars rather than driving the Jaguars first clean and then show. Just turn it around clean, show then drive.

We are all going to spend quite a bit by just being part of the CC. Total expense must be considered.

Thanks for listening.

Bill

That's quite an endorsement.

By then they will be race-prepped Corvettes. In fact, I was a bit hesitant to take the course now because I wanted to wait for the 'vettes. But they had an opening tomorrow (Monday) and the computer business is slow at the moment. If it slows at the end of one year, it usually blasts the beginning of the next. So I decided to take my turn when I had the chance.

Here's how things appear to be shaping up. A lot of people are interested in karting, so we'll set up a half day late Wednesday, say 3-7 p.m. A lot of people are interested in taking a course that teaches the best way to get around our slalom course, so I was thinking of setting that up Wednesday morning from like 9 a.m. - 1 p.m.

They have 2- and 3-day versions of the HP school, so you could either do the 2-day and both events on Wednesday, or the 3-day and karts. As I understand it, the 3-day course goes into more detail and gives you more track time. What I'm not sure about is if it's the same course for the first two days and just the third is different. That would make it easy. I'll ask.

If people really, really want to do the 3-day course, let me know, because I'll probably pursue the 2-day version as a group thing and attempt to negotiate a discount. Keep in mind that unless we take over the entire school, the 3-day course will still be available, I don't know if we'd get a discount, though.

You can definitely use your own car, at least for the track time. They have those large caster-wheeled outriggers they use for skid control training. I don't know if they are adjustable to fit any car.

What I'll do when I'm down there over the next three days is to negotiate price breaks for the various activities. I'll print out the slalom manual for them to peruse.

I'll get some information on discounts and registration deadlines and pass that along, then hopefully we can get some feedback on the interest level from the members.

Pascal and Gary. What's your suggestion on paying the tuition, everyone pay Bonodurant or pay JCNA and we pay Bondurant? If I quote prices based on quantity discounts, how do we handle it if we don't make the next tier or have more than expected and go a tier beyond. Perhaps JCNA should take deposits, made by and non-refundable after a certain date, of a quarter of the price of each activity. If you cancel out of one, you have to find someone to replace your or you lose the deposit. (Kind of like the concours registration fee, it sounds a little harsh though. I'm just trying to get an accurate count.)

Mark

: If you can arrange the Bondurat HP Driving School for Mon.-Tue.-Wed.

: prior to the C.C., count me in! I prefer to drive my E type, but will

: be happy to sign up for their school using the Roush Mustangs. One of

: my pals went last January, and was quite satisfied with the learning

: experience, and he's a former Skip Barber instructor!

: Gary

:Mark,

If you can arrange the Bondurat HP Driving School for Mon.-Tue.-Wed. prior to the C.C., count me in! I prefer to drive my E type, but will be happy to sign up for their school using the Roush Mustangs. One of my pals went last January, and was quite satisfied with the learning experience, and he's a former Skip Barber instructor!

Gary

My concept for Phoenix, at the present time, subject to input from the

: people on the list, is to do offer the 3-day the high performance

: driving school Mon-Wed. The CC begins Thursday, so there would be no

: conflict. You just have to arrive earlier.

: I'm leaning toward the 3-day High Performance Driving School. Here is

: the syllabus.

: 3-DAY HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVING

: Cars Driven: Race Prepared Mustang GT (will be Vette's starting first of

: the year)

: Car Time: 3-Days (Mu GT)

: 3 Day High Performance Driving - Training Includes: ò Autocross

: ò Heel & Toe Downshifting

: ò Throttle Steer

: ò Accident Avoidance

: ò Handling Oval

: ò Proper Line Technique (Entry, Apex & Exit)

: ò Skid Control (Under steer & Over steer)

: ò Brake & Turn (ABS & Non ABS Systems)

: ò Day I & 2- On the Pad - Throttle Steer, Slalom, Accident

: Avoidance, Skid Control

: ò Day 3 Track Driving

: ò Qualifies Students for 3-Day High Performance Graduate

: Day One (Mustang GT)

: 6:30-7:45 Intro / Tour Van Ride

: 7:45-9:00 Throttle Steer / Slalom

: 9:00-10:00 Ground School

: 10:00-11:30 Lunch

: 11:30-12:00 Ground School

: 12:00-2:30 Accident Avoidance/Skid Car

: Day Two (Mustang GT)

: 7:00-7:45 Ground School

: 7:45-9:45 Handling Oval / Heel & Toe Downshifting

: 9:45-10:30 Brake & Turn

: 10:30-12:00 Lunch

: 12:00-12:30 Ground School

: 12:30-2:30 Autocross / Maricopa Oval

: Day Three (Mustang GT)

: 7:00-7:30 Ground School

: 7:30-10:00 Maricopa Oval / Autocross / Skid Car

: 10:00-11:30 Lunch

: 11:30-11:45 Ground School

: 11:45-12:45 Intro Lake Loop-Carousel / Lead & Follow

: 12:45-2:30 Track Time

: 2:30-3:00 Graduation

: **This itinerary is a guideline and is subject to modification.

: Bill, here's an interesting note from their website.

: "How fast do you want to go? You're driving! How fast you go

: depends on you and your abilities, and higher speeds will come with

: knowledge and experience. While we encourage participants to find

: their limits, every student is coached at their individual comfort

: level.

: "...We do not put any RPM or speed limits on the [cars], except for

: the Slalom course and Accident Avoidance exercise. While other

: schools may start you at 3,000 RPM and gradually move you up, we feel

: you need to explore the car's limits from the very beginning."

: And there's this in the insurance section...

: "While other schools may not hold you responsible for damage,

: they'll never let you find the car's true limits. Others that let you

: on a racetrack will limit your speed so much that it's impossible to

: get into an accident, but it's also impossible to learn. Only at

: Bondurant will you drive to your limits."

: And for Pascal and others...

: "Can I use my own car?

: "Yes, in selected courses. You may use your own car in ... the High

: Performance Driving courses.

: "We see everything from Volkswagen Beetles to Ferraris. The type of

: car isn't as important as the condition of the car. Your vehicle must

: have proper safety equipment for both driver and passenger and be in

: good operating order. Our technicians will inspect your car's

: condition upon arrival, checking tires, brakes, fluids, etc."

: I'm starting the course on Monday, so I'll report back.

: Mark

Sorry it took me some time to add my opinion; I'll be there but without a car. I think the idea of a half day slalom instruction and a half day of karts (which is a LOT of fun) is the best way to go and will attract the greatest percentage of "the masses".

Daniel

This discussion comes up every time as I recall.

Colorado : Rally and Slalom on Tuesday, Pikes Peak on Wed, Concours on Thursday... (isn't the Interner great ? one click and we have the answer... http://www.southfloridajaguarclub.org/events/IJF1999.htm

It would be really good this time around after the 2003 event to get some feedback from those who attended and also those who didn't ( easy to do on the site). It will help with the planning of the 2005 event. I'd hate to be in Mark and Dennis' place and have to guess or strugle to please everybody... :-)

You are right Linda. Concours on Tue, Rally / slalom / track on Wed. Thur. would be far better. Add in the swap meet on monday and a final tour on friday as optional activities for those who want 3 days to travel and still fit it all in a single week/2 week end time frame.

Although I must say the slalom instrution / shifter cart day sounds like a ton of fun and should be an extra reason to attend.

Pascal

: I don't recall what the schedule for Colorado was but my question is ,

: why do we not have the show as the first event instead of the later

: part of the week? Participants only want to clean their car up once.

: By having the show first they can then go on to the driving events

: and not be concerned about cleaning the car again for the show. This

: is the schedule usually followed by other car clubs for national

: meets. Clean first, Play second. I am not concerned about the trailer

: queens since they will not participate in driving events anyway. I'll

: bet if the schedule were adjusted (yes, too late for this year) there

: would be better participation in the driving events.

: L D Young

: Tulsa

: Schedule is a problem though. being a National event with a large number

: of participants coming a distance, I really regret that a schedule

: similar to Colorado had not been used.

I don't recall what the schedule for Colorado was but my question is , why do we not have the show as the first event instead of the later part of the week? Participants only want to clean their car up once. By having the show first they can then go on to the driving events and not be concerned about cleaning the car again for the show. This is the schedule usually followed by other car clubs for national meets. Clean first, Play second. I am not concerned about the trailer queens since they will not participate in driving events anyway. I'll bet if the schedule were adjusted (yes, too late for this year) there would be better participation in the driving events.

L D Young

Tulsa

Perhaps we could make a day of it, then, with a half day of Slalom instruction and a half day of shifter carts?

We could suggest the two day High Performance Driving School for Monday and Tuesday? For those who are so inclined.

I'll ask a few more questions.

Mark

Mark,

another alternative, as I think that both schedule and cost will lmit the number of entries, would be a half day Kart course.

couple of years ago, on the Texas Vintage rally, the organizers threw in a 3 hour stop at an indoor kart track which they had booked.

The amount of fun we all had there was unbelievable. and they were not high performance shifters, just basic karts but you had 20 or 30 grown men ( and women... ) with classic Ferraris, Jaguars, Aston, etc... sitting outside in the parking having a blast on karts.

this might just be the best way to kick in the fun on wednesday. I see they list $ 450 for the half day course, we should be able to get a larger group , like 20 or 30, and get a discount. Can you check on group size and prices ?

Pascal

My concept for Phoenix, at the present time, subject to input from the people on the list, is to do offer the 3-day the high performance driving school Mon-Wed. The CC begins Thursday, so there would be no conflict. You just have to arrive earlier.

I'm leaning toward the 3-day High Performance Driving School. Here is the syllabus.

3-DAY HIGH PERFORMANCE DRIVING

Cars Driven: Race Prepared Mustang GT (will be Vette's starting first of the year)

Car Time: 3-Days (Mu GT)

3 Day High Performance Driving - Training Includes:

ò Autocross

ò Heel & Toe Downshifting

ò Throttle Steer

ò Accident Avoidance

ò Handling Oval

ò Proper Line Technique (Entry, Apex & Exit)

ò Skid Control (Under steer & Over steer)

ò Brake & Turn (ABS & Non ABS Systems)

ò Day I & 2- On the Pad - Throttle Steer, Slalom, Accident Avoidance, Skid Control

ò Day 3 Track Driving

ò Qualifies Students for 3-Day High Performance Graduate

Day One (Mustang GT)

6:30-7:45 Intro / Tour Van Ride

7:45-9:00 Throttle Steer / Slalom

9:00-10:00 Ground School

10:00-11:30 Lunch

11:30-12:00 Ground School

12:00-2:30 Accident Avoidance/Skid Car

Day Two (Mustang GT)

7:00-7:45 Ground School

7:45-9:45 Handling Oval / Heel & Toe Downshifting

9:45-10:30 Brake & Turn

10:30-12:00 Lunch

12:00-12:30 Ground School

12:30-2:30 Autocross / Maricopa Oval

Day Three (Mustang GT)

7:00-7:30 Ground School

7:30-10:00 Maricopa Oval / Autocross / Skid Car

10:00-11:30 Lunch

11:30-11:45 Ground School

11:45-12:45 Intro Lake Loop-Carousel / Lead & Follow

12:45-2:30 Track Time

2:30-3:00 Graduation

**This itinerary is a guideline and is subject to modification.

Bill, here's an interesting note from their website.

"How fast do you want to go? You're driving! How fast you go depends on you and your abilities, and higher speeds will come with knowledge and experience. While we encourage participants to find their limits, every student is coached at their individual comfort level.

"...We do not put any RPM or speed limits on the [cars], except for the Slalom course and Accident Avoidance exercise. While other schools may start you at 3,000 RPM and gradually move you up, we feel you need to explore the car's limits from the very beginning."

And there's this in the insurance section...

"While other schools may not hold you responsible for damage, they'll never let you find the car's true limits. Others that let you on a racetrack will limit your speed so much that it's impossible to get into an accident, but it's also impossible to learn. Only at Bondurant will you drive to your limits."

And for Pascal and others...

"Can I use my own car?

"Yes, in selected courses. You may use your own car in ... the High Performance Driving courses.

"We see everything from Volkswagen Beetles to Ferraris. The type of car isn't as important as the condition of the car. Your vehicle must have proper safety equipment for both driver and passenger and be in good operating order. Our technicians will inspect your car's condition upon arrival, checking tires, brakes, fluids, etc."

I'm starting the course on Monday, so I'll report back.

Mark

We had a great time the last time the AGM was held in Charlotte. We took part in the "Petty experience." There was a morning session and an afternoon session. We spent time in a class room and time on the track, with an instuctor, in a station wagon, we made numerous trips around the track each one a little faster than the one before. Then back to the class room, we got our nomax suits, helmts, gloves and picked a driving partner. The driving partner was the other person that would accompany you and the instructor on the track. Three cars, two drivers, one instructor. The instructors job was to hold the speed down so that we didn't get too wild.

We got eight laps, two warm up, six electroniclly timed. What a rush. It was an experince I will never forget. And it only took up one day. At the cost of $250.00

At the challenge meets we are usually kept so busy, that at times it feels like ou are part of an endourance contest. So if we tried to get in two or three days of driving we probably wouldn't have time to slalom, rally and concours.

My opinion, thought I would throw it out and see if anyone picked iy up.

Thanks for the opportunity Keep up the good work.

Thank you Pascal! :-)

Bill Streitenbeger

It might interesting to find out what most members prefer, that should help in planning the 2005 edition. both regarding the time of the year and the days. maybe school isn't a issue for most... later on maybe a quick survey of members who did not attend trying to find out why...

Btravelling on the week end you really maximise the time there as well. driving Sat/sun leaves 5 full days there Vs 4.

oh maybe I'm just being picky... and most normal souls will not drive 2600 miles each way and stay just 5 days anyway ! :-) they'd make it a 2 week trip !

Pascal

: Actually, I don't know the logic of having it over the weekend. I can

: see your point, though. It will facilitate the drivers school,

: though. If you look at timing, a long distance participant would

: require eight days to attend. Leave early Tuesday, drive two days,

: participate, leave early Monday, return home late Tuesday. So, yeah,

: it does require taking an extra day off compared to past concours.

: You are correct about the timing with kids in school. Unfortunately, we

: all leave during the summer and no one comes here unless it's

: absolutely necessary. :-)

: Mark

Actually, I don't know the logic of having it over the weekend. I can see your point, though. It will facilitate the drivers school, though. If you look at timing, a long distance participant would require eight days to attend. Leave early Tuesday, drive two days, participate, leave early Monday, return home late Tuesday. So, yeah, it does require taking an extra day off compared to past concours.

You are correct about the timing with kids in school. Unfortunately, we all leave during the summer and no one comes here unless it's absolutely necessary. :-)

Mark

The only problem is that we won't know what the rates are until we have some idea of how many people are interested. Slalom course instruction, if we offer it, will be determined by how many entrants, the course, and how much time we want to spend.

I think we can safely put something in the accompanying article stating that "We are currently negotiating with the Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving for reduced rates for high performance driving classes. Rates will depend on what members are interested in and how many of us there are."

With our first tier pricing deadline being January 15, we might get a feel by adding a couple questions to the registration asking,

Would you be interested in arriving one to three days early to attend a high performance driving course at the Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving ? Yes [] No [] (See www.bondurant.com for more information and pre-discount pricing.)

Would you be interested in a Wednesday (4/30) afternoon JCNA slalom course taught by Bondurant instructors? Yes [] No [] (For comparison, a 1/2-day shifter kart course costs $450 before group discounts.)

Then, if we can get some feedback from prior CCs on how many people pre-register we can extrapolate from the initial responses received by the first deadline. We can have Bondurant send interested people additional information.

What I'd like to do in the meantime, if there is any way to do it, is to get a feel for how many JCNA members would be interested in some of the options I mentioned previously. I'd like to zero in on the top one or two. Pascal, do you have any sense of that?

Anyone what to venture a preliminary guess as to how many members would be interested? Anyone know how many slalom entrants we had at Franklin?

Mark

: The Challenge Championship brochure/entry form is going into the

: November-December Jaguar Journal. If special rates and session at

: Bondurant are organized for the Challenge, it would be great to get

: an announcement into the Journal. It would be a squeeze and pretty

: short but we could do it. Obviously it would be an important selling

: tool to attract people to the Challenge. We have about a week to be

: able to do this so keep me posted

: Mike Cook

The Challenge Championship brochure/rntry form is going into the November-December Jaguar Journal. If special rates and session at Bondurant are organized for the Challenge, it would be great to get an announcement into the Journal. It would be a squeeze and pretty short but we could do it. Obviously it would be an important selling tool to attract people to the Challenge. We have about a week to be able to do this so keep me posted

Mike Cook

First let me begin by praising my thoughtful, loving wife, Andrea, for

: purchasing the 3-day High Performance Driving Course at the Bob

: Bondurant School of High Performance Driving. I'm scheduled to take

: the course this Monday-Wednesday so I'll report back.

: When I called to day to schedule, I spoke with a very helpful

: salesperson who gave me a bunch of alternatives to examine. I pass

: these on for your perview.

: First the overview. We have three days preceeding the concours, Monday -

: Wednesday, April 28-30, with which to work. Group discounts are

: available. The size depends on the number of participants.

: Here are the options: The High Performance Driving Course (2 or 3 days -

: Corvettes or our own cars - no prerequisites)

: The Grand Prix Course (4 days - Formula Fords - no prerequisites)

: Advanced Road Racing Course (3 days - Corvettes or our own cars -

: prerequisites)

: Shifter cart course (1/2 to 1 day - tailored to suit our needs)

: and last but not least,

: Slalom course instruction using our layout.

: I believe at that time of the year, the class hours are from 6:30 a.m.

: to 2:30 p.m. so that would leave time afterwards for the slalom

: instruction.

: Various things are possible, but it would be better if we focused on a

: two or three items to simplify matters and increase discounts.

: However if someone really wanted to do something different, they

: could.

: So the initial question is what are you preferences? Give me a 1,2,3

: ranking.

: For more information on the specifics of the courses, see the link

: below.

: You might want to sit through the Flash opening, it's pretty neat.

: I'd like to present the options to a wider audience. Any suggestions?

: Web site?

: "Mark 1" Mark Stephenson, Jaguar Club of Central Arizona

: The Arizona Concours Weekend is coming...

: JCSA Concours, Tucson, Oct. 26 / JCCA Concours, Phoenix, Oct. 27 For

: more information, visit www.jcca.us .