JCNA Challenge Championship: are members interested?

We're in agreement as to the proper way to survey the membership.

As for the letter, yes it's true one should never try to draw conclusions about a population of thousands based on one letter. HOWEVER, I draw attention to this letter because it is a well worded and written snapshot of dozens and dozens of comments I've heard over the past few years, both in written and verbal form.

Where there is smoke........

Daniel Thompson
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

survey : I think if it jsut gets mailed in the journal, it will fail. however, with better communications with the clubs it will succeed. That's why I mention sending forms to clubs and have them pass them around to their members at the next couple of meetings, then collect them on the spot. Indeed have the regional directors ge in touch with clubs to get it done.

I doubt the letter you posted is really significant. Unfortunately, in a club out of 100, 200 members there always be one unhapy member like this one. I once got a very angry email from one of our member very upset that his car wasn't appearing in the newsletter. He thought I didn't include pictures of his car taken at events because I didn't like his car and frowned upon its condition... the truth was out of bad luck, i didn't have any good shots... poor angle, backgrounds, limbs had gotten in the way, etc...

If anything, your example should be a reminder to all to make sure we make new members welcome, to also offer a diversity of activities but you can't draw any conclusion from one in 1000 ....

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

I agree that guidance on what the members need and want will come from........ the members. However, we should be very careful of falling into the trap of "garbage in, garbage out". Sending out a questionnaire will be of little value if it is met with the same apathy that Regional Director elections and JCNA boardroom debates are met with. We'll end up getting questionaires back that were filled in by the Daniels, Patricks, Steves, Pascals and Garys of the world. To really get a feel of what the "other" 90% of the membership feels (the people who are not attending the Challenge Chapionship and not entering their cars in concours or very few other events), we need to get right inside the clubs. We need to establish a very direct and personal line of communication to the club presidents and thru them to the members. Another job for the under-utilized Regional Directors!

On a related note, allow me to paste in a letter that I received from a club member who has decided to let his local and JCNA membership lapse. I have sanitised it to protect the identity of the author, but it offers some interesting insights (note that the club in question is thousands of miles away from me):

I joined the local Jag club this year with my wife to dine with likable people and to pick up some tips, since I have rebuilt several 6 cylinder engines and have dealt with other typically-Jag problems over the years.

But the club seems most interested in "concours" type shows for which only a very few wealthy members are qualified to participate in, and furthermore, the techies types I talked to pretty much just sit across the table from me and talk to themselves. When I tried to say something, even a polite agreement, they stopped and gave me "the intruder" look.

I had lots of questions, such as, why do the engines always overheat even after a complete tear-down, why do the hoses need constant replacement and most important, what can I do about it?

I have my own ideas about tech solutions, but I thought the club would have some serious insights. -And I'm no dummy, I have multiple college degrees including advanced ones and degrees in XXXXX and XXXXX. I grabbed a 'scope and fixed my own fuel injection computer, and have come up with some novel mechanical remedies. But I'm sure there is much more out there than I know. The first issue of the local newsletter I got included a summary of a recent tech-lesson, but since then, it is mostly about who-went-where, and someone's amazing personal Jag collection.

I don't have a collection. I have kids in college. At the dinner we attended, I strained to hear the Talk Of The Techies across the table, while my wife listened to the lady next to her talk about her daughter's new job (deleted).

The club is more of a clique, the people are polite, but my car, though nice and thousands-of-dollars-freshly-painted, --is not really Concours. The techies don't really want to talk - to a Newbee -, and the newer cars have so few problems that no doubt, mechanical/electrical discussions will in time pass away... along with those of us seniors from the ancient 50's/60's past history of Jaguar.

So, renewal this year isn't likely. >>>>

Interesting, no?

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

I think it's "acceptable" and needed to ask our selves the question...

I'm sure distance would be the nr 1 reason given by those who don't attend. now the question will be to find out what would have made some change their mind. I really think it will be worth putting together a simple survey in june, thru the journal, site, and clubs ( send them a batch of form to get filled out at their next meeting) asking those questions and asking those who went what would they have like to see done differently.

That's the only way to learn what members want...

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

I think we are veering away from the original intention of this discussion. The discussion was not about concours or concours scoring. Let's go back and establish a few "givens":

- The Challenge Championship is an excellent event, well organized and a ton of fun.
- club members are interested in events that involve Jaguars and are a ton of fun.

No one is arguing against the above two points.

Here's the point of the the discussion: our club (JCNA) has over 6500 members. The Challenge Championship historically attracts around 200 cars (3%). Many other car clubs (take your pick: Healey, Triumph, MG, Alfa etc.) can boast attendance of 300 cars and much more at their ANNUAL event (ours is every two years) and this, from a much smaller membership base.

Question One: Does this bother anybody or do we believe this to be acceptable? Because if we consider that "nothing is wrong here" then yes, let's finish the discussion here and go have fun in Phoenix.

Question Two: If we find this to be unacceptable then the question is WHY? Why do JCNA Challenge Championships attract a smaller percentage of members than other marque specific national shows? Please don't tell me that driving an Austin-Healey 3000, a TR6, an Alfa Duetto or an MGB for 2000 miles is more comfortable or comforting than driving an E-type, an XK150, an XJ-S or an XJ6. The answer to this question could help us plan bigger and better Challenge Championships in the future.

I took the liberty of emailing the original posting in this thread to the presidents of Jaguar Clubs across the continent. I've received a lot of replies which I will collate and present before the AGM.

Daniel Thompson
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

It's certainly true that both Franklin and Colorado where the most memorable events I've attended.

How can you top...

- driving with a pride of 50 Jaguars up Pikes Peak...
- following a beautiful red XK FHC for a few miles during the rally, at close to 100mph, with the Rockies facing a few miles ahead, just enjoying the glorious sound of its XK engine...
- the sight of 25+ C and D types around the square in Franklin...
- the run to the Jack Daniel's distillery on some great Tn back roads...
- following one 62 FHC on the Franklin Rally, again at close range and fast on some very twisty roads...
- the line of E-type in the parking at the hotel, all lined up and ready for the short drive to the concours downtown...
- and much more...

I am sure the list will grow longer in Pheonix... yes, it's a bit far from some, but isn't this what a vacation is also about ?

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

Daniel,

Of course members are interested! Resources like time and money, preclude attendance by many, but there are other funamental things having influence as well.

We, unlike many other marque groups like the Triumph, Alfa, Healey,etc., have the advantage of accessibility to judged concours conducted by many of our 59 affiliates. Other marques are forced into mixed events, or "popular vote" shows where there is no meaningful feedback to help in improving your car. If we were to confine our type of judging only to the Challenge Championship, its attendance would soar, while local attendance at popular vote shows, would suffer.
Our "marque-specific" shows feature nearly the same judging quality level as the Challenge Championship. This reduces the incentive to travel and spend, especially when one considers that winning there carries no extra weight other than unique trophies.
Imagine a C.C. with 500 cars. Our concours rules require that a class be judged by the same judges. Can you imagine being a member of a judging team assigned 40 ser 1 E types? Judging would be an impossibility!
Time, money, and a reluctance to travel more than a day's drive in an un air-conditioned classic of dubious reliability, will always keep the total number of entries in check.

Let's stop beating ourselvs up over this! There's nothing wrong here! Those who come to this LANDMARK EVENT will be treated royally, and see many exciting cars from Jaguar. The "Western experience" will be memorable, and the Jaguars, top quality! Those who attended Franklin know exactly what I mean.

We should, however, enhance the CC's stature and value, by giving serious consideration to the suggestion made by Patric McLoad, John Testrake, and supported by Pascal. That is, to consider a C.C. score, equivalent to a regular 3-score average, for North American year end awards.

Come to the 2003 Challenge Championship! You'll be glad you did!

I agree with John on a couple of points, those being that The Challenge Championship is simply too far for many to attend, regardless of where itÆs held, and, the Challenge Championship is merely another concours whose score means no more or less than any other show that is merely a couple of hundred miles away. Other than the camaraderie with a grand group of folks, there is really no incentive to attend or even bring a car, the latter of which involves a lot of work and expense. I dare say that those who can attend are either retired or work for themselves. I was only able to attend the Franklin, TN show because I do work for myself and my wife didnÆt mind watching the kids while I was gone (I assume I was the only one from the Southwest that Daniel referenced).

I donÆt have a clue why other car clubs (especially Corvettes) are able to hold such large, well-attended national events. No doubt, they suffer from the same distance problem, but the fact of the matter is that there are far more folks with Corvettes, Mustangs, and Triumphs than there are those with classic Jaguars. And perhaps, there is special recognition bestowed on these cars at their national function. Being one of the Class 5 championship winners for 2002, I felt compelledàeven obligatedàto bring my E-Type to Phoenix this year. However several obstacles came into play. First, our all-state meeting is being held on the weekend before Phoenix, and one of the most prestigious concours in the Southwest, the Lakewood Yacht ClubÆs ôWooden Keels and Classic Wheelsö concours is on the same weekend as Phoenix. But realistically, what would I accomplish by showing at Phoenix? Would I go head-to-head with Mr. Terence Smith of Pittsburg (who tied for Class 5)? I doubt it because Mr. Smith would have to come all the way from Pittsburgàquite a haul. And if I/we did, what would be gained? It would simply be another concours for 2003. Now I donÆt necessarily have to gain anything at a concours because I simply like to be among other Jaguar fanaticsàbut there are many others in JCNA who DO need a better reason or incentive.

On the local club level, itÆs very difficult to get folks to bring their Jaguars to our concoursàand we have a membership of over 100! All we ask is one day out of the year for 6 or so hours in a beautiful resort setting, but year after year, we still have somewhat slim turnouts. I think what it boils down to is the mindset of each individual. Many of us in JCNA are fanatics, and we actually want to compete in local, regional, or national standings. We are obsessed with Jaguar authenticity minutia. But to many others, their classic (or modern) Jaguar is simply a car, a mode of transportation, a hobbyànothing to get excited about. Their cars come second to weekend chores and soccer games. ThereÆs nothing we can do about that. Nor is there anything we can do to persuade the owner of a driven-class car to spend the money to upgrade to champ class. By far, the number of driven-class participants outweigh those in champ class, but itÆs still difficult to get these folks to our shows because they feel their cars are not worthy of being among others (or they donÆt run). Their is a bit of intimidation that goes along with a ôChampionship Challengeö or even a local Concours dÆElegance.

Perhaps IÆve strayed from the issue, but the point is the same problems that plague us on the local level is much more prevalent for a National meet, given the distances involved. The ôChampionship Challengeö will never attain any status until the incentives live up to the name of the event.

And as you recall, this event needs to steer clear of the much publicized problems that were encountered in Franklin. Political agendas can only hurt our efforts. (And between you and me, I think the budget for the national awards needs to be bumped up quite a bitàthey are so small and sort of inconsequential given the amount of work that has gone into these cars.)

While IÆm at it, IÆd like to see the Champ Challenge become a two-day show. If youÆre prepping a car for competition or if youÆre involved in judging process, thereÆs just no way to enjoy the event and to mingle and see all of the cars. I realize that this puts even greater pressure on the event, especially for those who need to load up and hit the road. At Franklin, I donÆt ever recall having seen the 100-point E-Type and I was only able to take a cursory glance at the C and D Types before everyone was released. With a 2-day show, there is a greater possibility of it being covered by national media such as Motor Week or My Classic Car (is that show still on?!) television, or, national print publications.

ItÆs also key for the event to be held in or near a major city where we can draw a lot of spectators. I enjoy having my Jaguar on display for the general public; the more the merrier. And if you want to make it a family event, there needs to be things for the kids and non-enthusiast wives to do (but we already know that). Perhaps we should start building the status of this event in the heart of America instead of floating around.

I was also disadvantaged in Franklin by not being within walking distance to my trailer; I was by myself and did not have the luxury of a support vehicle. I had to cram cleaning items, cameras, covers, manuals and whatnot into my E-Type. I can tell you I will not do that again. If my trailer has to stay 10 miles away at the host hotel, IÆll not be showing. (IÆm told this is not the case in Phoenix).

Anyway, those are my thoughts. IÆll be glad to help where I can.

Regards,
Patrick McLoad
JC Houston
1966 E-Type, OTS, RHD
#1E1445
www.mcload.com

Since I mention the scheduling issue, let me clarify what I meant because I think it is important.

The schedule in Colorado Spring was perfect for those coming from far away. Events took place during the week, and allowed us to travel on the week ends. Many of us have jobs, businesses, and families and it's not always easy to take nearly 2 week off...

If we want to maximise attendance, we have to make it easy to attend.

Phoenix : Activities take place on Thurs thru Sunday. which means me must travel on Monday and Tuesdays. It "blows" a week and a half. I'm sure I'm not alone in that case but leaving a business or a job, family etc for a week and a half is much harder than for a week especially since this takes place during the school year...

It's impossible to please everyone, but at least, I think this is something that's worth looking into.

Location is a big problem to solve. there are only so many places in the middle that are attractive. Is Phoenix a bit too far west maybe. Just like Franklin was a bit too far east. If that's the case then maybe a move to an annual event alternating east and west might be the solution. Sort of a merger of the Western States bienual into the JCC.

Third and last, activities. yes it's hard to organize a lot of things but how do our national evetn compare with other clubs. Do they offer more activities ? well I just looked at the web and they sure do...

Porsche:
Registration/ socializing on sat and sun. concours onMon. Rally on tuesday. driving/autocross/track/tech events on We. thu. Frid. Banquet on Sat. 2003 is in Tampa, 2002 Idaho, 2001, Wisconsin, 2000 Calif. Distance isn't an issue for them.

Is it also an question of not offering enough and not making it really worth the distance ? the thought did cross my mind ( briefly) that 1 rally, 1 slalom, 1 concours was not taht much incentive to drive 2400 miles...

Ferrari Club : this April in Sebring... ( again distance not an issue). Tue seminar, Wed Concours, thur Rally, Fri / Sat track time or tours.

Couldn't find info on the BMW or Alfa site but Porsche and Ferrari do have something in common with us: both Heritage and modern cars, performance... etc ... Note that they ALL start with the concours...

I probably don't have the answer to the question, and I'm sure some counterpoints could be made, but this is something which must be looked into before plans are made for 2005.

Hearing from a number of members why they do not attend and from those who attended what they would have like to be done differently seems critical. something as simple as a card given at registration and a collection box on the departure day to collect the answers should be easy to do.

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

Are members interested? You bet!
But... The location is just too far for me to attend. I'm in St. Louis on the western frontier of the eastern half of the country and it's still 1500 miles and two days of driving (even without the side trip to the Grand Canyon).

I must say that the JCNA folks in the Central Arizona club who have put this together have done a marvelous job. It couldn't be any better and my hat's off to them for all their hard work but this is looking like a show for the JCNA clubs in the southwestern states. Hey, that's fine, but I'm not sure that many folks east of the Mississippi are going to be there. That's not anybody's fault. It's just a big country! The 2001 event was the same in reverse with most westerners opting out of participating.

The actual structure of the Challenge Championship (point wise) is another consideration. It is, for me at least, really just another JCNA concours. I can get all the points I need for an international campaign by attending shows within a 300 mile radius of my home. I can also see lots of other JCNA cars and meet lots of other JCNA people. Now... if the Challenge Championship was actually a championship, i.e., with winners taking home international JCNA class bragging rights for the year, I would be much more inclined to slap the car onto a trailer and haul it out to Phoenix.

John Testrake
President, Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis