Should we give more punch to Challenge Championship scores ?

As low as the front of an E-type is I guess you were lucky the animal didn't slide up the bonnet and into the windscreen. Glad you were not hurt. Anything mechanical can be fixed.

Regards, John

John,

Fortunately, there was minimal mechanical/structural damage. The radiator was pushed back (you can see a crease which is the top of the radiator in the picture posted above). I was lucky enough to be able to replace it with an aluminum higher capacity radiator since it had to be pulled anyway. So hopefully the overheating issue will no longer plague this car. Progress is being made on the restorations, as my more recent pictures show (see the Gallery). Hopefully, by spring, I'll have a nicely repainted car to proudly enter in driven class at some JCNA events this coming summer.

Regards,
Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Whoops, so it does. Thanks Dick. I can't believe I missed it. I must have looked at the insert for 15 minutes trying to find a reference to Driven class. Pretty obvious once it is pointed out.

Regards, John

John,
The Challenge Championship flyer included in the November-December Jaguar Journal does in fact include Driven Division classes.
Please re-examine the "Class References" at the bottom of page 3of4 of the flyer and you will discover that the Driven Division classes are
listed on right side of the Concours Classes chart.

When one fills out the "Jaguars Attending" portion of the application, please list C (+ class number) or D (+ class number) to indicate
which class is appropriate for your vehicle under the "Participating in... Concours Class" column.

Thanks,
Dick Cavicke
Chief Judge, 2003 Challenge Championship

Oh, I forgot to mention that Driven class is not mentioned on the Registration form either. Just an oversight I hope.

Regards, John

Steve, Pascal: I hope I am wrong. I was basing my statement on the information provided on page 3 of 4 in the Championship Challenge insert in the Nov-Dec 2002 Jaguar Journal. They list class references as C-1A through C-19, Display and Slalom classes. I saw no mention of driven class unless I overlooked it.

I followed your deer exploits on the E-type list. Yeah, I agree, I think you will do better in modified than in Driven. Any mechanical damage from that encounter?

Regards, John

looks like a reverse rumble seat... would be good in modified... I do prefer your latest pictures in the E-type gallery... :-)

yes, it's Champion and Driven at Phoenix. I've moved to C16 last year, loose too much in Driven with my tires, console,etc... Although im probably going to stick to Display... less work... gives me more time to enjoy the show and take pictures...

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

John,

I think you're mistaken. At the JCC in Franklin two years ago, there was definitely a driven class. In fact, several cars from our club took home trophies in driven class. As far as I'm aware, it is a regular JCNA concours, with both concours AND driven classes. I sure someone on the committee will correct me if I'm wrong and driven is not being judged this year. But frankly, I'd be stunned, since many members like Pascal and Ginger who will be attending show their cars in driven, not concours class.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

P.S. Here's my entry for driven class this year. Driven right into a deer. Think I'll win? Maybe if I enter it in modified class....

I pretty much agree with much of what Patrick has written. Giving more than one show weight or basing a car's championship standings for a concours season entirely on the results of one show may tend to reduce the enthusiasm of participants who are competing by showing at three local concours.

I think the Championship Challenge is a special show and should be treated as such with unique awards and standings separate from the normal JCNA Championship and Driven class standings.

I am also curious why there are not driven class awards at the Championship Challenge.

Regards, John

No one else is speaking up, so...
I think you guys have some good ideas, except for that one about 5 shows?!? ;-P. My input as a fairly new member (2 years) is entirely from a personal point of view. Maybe there will be something in here that is helpful.

From what I've seen, club members won't know anything about the big JCNA event unless it is promoted, no matter what is planned. For me, it took a lot of prodding to go to my first one because it was so far away. That was when it was actually near me in the Southeast. Now I'm going even though its in the Southwest. Why? I had fun at the first one and made friends that I'd like to see again. The area and activities sound great. I'd also like to meet some of the people that didn't come last time because it was too far for them. I get to meet some "cyberfriends" for the first time.

Not taking my car though. Why? I just think it's a longer trip than I want to drive and shipping is expensive. If someone is offering that type of service at a discount it needs to be promoted.

As far as judging goes, there may be a happy middle ground by making the CC more weighted, but it needs to be just ONE of the required shows for a car that year, or you're right -- we'll never see the best of the trailer queens, and I want to see them!

If that's the only place I can see them, it would be sad, but it may be incentive to get me there, too. Double-edged sword. If you're going to continue to call it Championship Challenge, then the judging there has to be respected and reached for. Under our strict rules, it takes a while. It would be nice if we could cut out official judging all together. Maybe we need a new name for the thing. How about The Jaguar Rumble?

Seriously, it's hard to be just right for everyone. For some, the competition gets them there, and they don't care much for socializing. For others, it may be a trip they have planned as a club or family. Due to convenience, we can always expect to draw the most participants from the region in which it is held. I like the idea of it moving around.

I think I'm done now.

Ginger Corda
1971 E-Type 2+2 Regency Red

Sorry for the confusion, I forgot the CC was every other year. So in these years, the CC would in essence be the FIRST concours of the season, correct? And then the following year would simply be the best of 3 scores?

It still seems like weÆre getting away from the namesake of the event, but perhaps IÆm getting buried in semantics. Is Championship Challenge about the championship class or championship car(s)? (i.e. previous national champs). For some reason, I thought this was a ôbattle of the champsö, or the Super Bowl of JCNA concours. I guess this just isnÆt possible.

If it can only be yet another concours, however weighted, then perhaps the incentive is misplaced. How deflating would it be for someone to have a perfect score at Champ Challenge before the season even gets underway? If someone did really well at CC, then couldnÆt that possibly undermine the attendance at local clubsÆ shows?

You know, IÆd almost prefer a situation where the cars are just displayed and not judged! How about a national event where everybody brings their cars and just has fun for a change? Perhaps thatÆs not enough for most though. The minute a show becomes a competition, innuendo, politics, questionable deductions, and lack of quality time for everyone concerned comes into play, ruining the whole nature of the event. I guess I could always just attend without a caràor even show without being judgedàto accomplish this. Sorry, I digress.

Why not make the Challenge Championship its own premiere contest? Get a BIG bad trophy (none of that cheap pewter stuff) that rotates around to the winners with names of winners inscribed on little plates on the base? ThatÆd be kinda cool. Heck, IÆd compete in that! And it wouldnÆt have a larger bearing on the national standings, putting some at a disadvantage. And IÆd still want a 2-day showàone for prep and judging, the other for ooohing and aahhing!

No easy answers.

By the way, I do expect to be at AGM in March.

Regards,
Patrick McLoad
JC Houston

I'm not sure what you mean about waiting till the next year. Allowing JCC scores to have the same weight as 3 local shows would only happen on years where the JCC is held.

There could be variations on this idea... including using a JCC score AND 1 local concours. That would still give more punch to the JCC while encouraging attendance.

or require a total of 3 concours to qualify but if the JCC score is higher than the average of the 3, only the JCC score will be used, or only the JCC plus the best of the other two. That would encourage participation to local events yet reward JCC participation by removing the pressure on the participant.

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

With all due respect, I tend to believe that PascalÆs idea is more ôdoableö than DanielsÆ. A minimum of 5 shows plus the Challenge is just too much to ask of any competitor, especially for those where sanctioned JCNA concours can be thousands of miles apart. As much as I like the idea of the cars being judged by the same folks in the same place under the same conditions, I really donÆt think JCNA will agree to amending the rules to where the Challenge Championship decides THE national champion. ThatÆs too radical a change after all of these years, and, it will certainly exclude many otherwise perfect cars from attending from a logistical standpoint. I think giving additional weight to CC will work. This may give those who can only make 2 sanctioned events the opportunity and incentive to attend CC for that last shot. I would require 2 sanctioned shows prior to CC. I donÆt think anyone should be able to win natÆl champ at just one show.

A couple of other things: I disagree that the CC judging is (or can ever be) the best unless JCNA flies in pre-approved professionals. I think this is probably the weakest link of the whole Challenge proposal.

IÆm also not particularly crazy about waiting until almost halfway into the next year for a show to determine the natÆl champion of the previous year. If weÆre going to do this, then we need to hold CC in December or Januaryà.May is just too far down the line. And you canÆt judge a national champ in the rain (Franklin); this HAS to be indoors.

In regards to the Timbuktu comments, I donÆt know of anyone who really knows where the ôinexperiencedö judges are unless they attend all of the shows in their surrounding statesàand who has the time to do that? If the ôproblemö is with consecutive 100-point scores, then letÆs base the system on 99.99 and do away with 100Æs. Again, with all due respect, if there is a perception that Texas (or Pittsburg for that matter) is ôeasyö, then weÆd be seeing an awful lot of cars coming down from up North or West, would we not? Truth of the matter is, we donÆt. Perhaps youÆd like to make a change where champ cars cannot be judged in their home state? Or perhaps youÆd like to clue us in as to where the ôexperiencedö judges are?

Regards,
Patrick McLoad
JC Houston

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. You mention that the quality of judging is (or should be) much higher at the National Challenge Championship than it would be at local events, and I agree. My experience has been that "serious" concours entrants will gravitate towards the show or club where they know they have the highest probability of scoring the highest points. If you think you have a better chance of scoring 100 points in Timbuktu (because the judges there aren't experienced enough to recognize your car's faults), then you will much rather go to three Timbuktu-type events and collect 100 points that way and win the national championship rather than go to the Challenge Championship 2000 miles away at great cost and risk getting humiliated in front of hundreds or thousands of people by a team of judges that really knows their stuff. Sorry for the run-on sentence.

I'm open to any and all suggestons like the one you are making, as a matter of fact I think we need to ENCOURAGE people to make suggestions of this type if we are going to succeed in improving the quality of the product we offer to members.

Here is my personal opinion: Champion level cars should be judged ONLY at the Challenge Championship. If a competitor wants to win a national championship in champion class then they must bring their car to the location of the Challenge Championship and have it judged side by side with the best cars in the country by the same team of judges. That way all the variables are eliminated: the best cars, the best judges, side by side in one place at one time, same weather, same people, same lighting etc. etc. This system does not preclude us from awarding regional trophies.

I know what the complaints will be: "if we do this nobody will ever see these great cars at local events... they'll be locked up in a garage somewhere and only pop out of a trailer once every two years...." True, but we could set up rules to make it MANDATORY for these competitors to display their cars locally. For example, how about a rule that says any entrant who wishes to compete at the Challenge Championship MUST have entered their car in (at least) display class at a MINUMUM of 5 local sanctioned concours (or sanctioned rallies or slaloms) over the 12 month period preceedding the Championship Challenge.

Anyway, keep throwing ideas out there!

Daniel Thompson
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120