judging consistency

I dont think there is a real answer here. In looking at my scoresheets for this season, I see areas where the same judge took off for different things in two different shows, with the car having been identically prepared. I put maybe 50 miles on the car between shows, but from looking at the two scoresheets , the scores are remarkably close, but the deductions were almost across the board in completely different categories. This is the same judge now, so you cant even say its a different set of eyes.

I think we have to accept some variation. Even having a roving team of judges would yeild varying scores, as I have seen that the same judge can see a car differently two different days of the week. I try not to worry myself about it.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

BOB WROTE: "What needs to be done is for a uniformity of the judging standards, as written, to be voluntarily adopted by each and every club within the JCNA."

I don't know what tools or procedures would need to be implemented but I agree consistancy or uniformity is the key. One way would be to create a list of "check this and check that", listing items to observe. Trouble with that is it would need to be model specific and could quickly become very long. Even if it was possible to create such a list you still have subjectivity in "awarding" points. How many fluffs of lint on the carpet move you from a .1 to a .2 deduction?

Regards, John

Regards, John

BOB WROTE: "What needs to be done is for a uniformity of the judging standards, as written, to be voluntarily adopted by each and every club within the JCNA."

I don't know what tools or procedures would need to be implemented but I agree consistancy or uniformity is the key.

Regards, John

It has been my experience this year that each Concours that I have attended have used totally different and contrasting critia with which to set their particular judging standards. I am not trying to suggest any are right or any are wrong, just different.

With this in mind, I guess if you showed on a regular basis year after year, it would not be impossible to quickly learn which clubs would be best for you to attend to have your car judged in a manner that suits your particular requirements. I think we can also agree that most exhibitors enjoy being awarded high scores. So it follows that the Individual clubs that are recognized as those that award the most generous scores are the ones that will probably be well attended by non club members the following year. In addition, deductions for originality and authenticity items are almost always contentious. So only the bravest of clubs will venture into that area if they want people to return the following year. Cleanliness and blemish deductions are by far the easiest to deal with. No direct face to face conflict with the exhibitor because they donÆt get to see the score sheet till two weeks after the event. The deductions are normally only minor in nature and the exhibitor will probably come back next year.

So we are left with a system of judging that is wide open to interpretation, very subjective and extremely flexible to each individual event. It would appear to award judging leniency and leaves the taking of deductions for non-authenticity only for the very brave. Blowing pollen, cloudy days, shady treeÆs, tree sap and blowing dust are just a very minor part of the problem and are easily handled on the day by the chief judge in my opinion. What needs to be done is for a uniformity of the judging standards, as written, to be voluntarily adopted by each and every club within the JCNA.

Bob.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

I think "clean" should not take a back seat to "authentic". Both are equally important. In a concours both the car and the preparation are considered, right ? Personally, I've never begrudged any hits I've taken for dirt.....either I got lazy or I wasn't observant enough, both well within my control.

As far as I know, "field dirt" (dust, grass in tire treads, pollen, etc) is never cause for a deduction.....at least that has been made clear at concours I've attended. If this is not universal then we have another prime example of how chief judges should get together and compare notes for the sake of consistancy.

Doug Dwyer
JDRC/NWA
1987 XJ6 III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Concours organizers can't control everything. The weather, clouds, rain, ambient light, air pollution (I once attended a concours where fine ash, from a industrial incinerator about 1/2 mile away would occasionally drift down on the cars) all are beyond reasonable control, unless all concours are moved into well lighted indoor areas.

Your comment about parking under trees has got me wondering if JCNA places too much emphasis on cleaning vs. originality and condition. What's more important, an overlooked thumbprint on a windscreen or seeing if the proper windscreen is installed? I am not diminishing the importance of the cleaning ritual that precedes each concours, but in my limited experience cleaning deducts seem to take precendence over originality and authenticity deducts.

Regards, John

Ill throw another wrench in the works for you. I showed my XJ12 last year in D07 in Los Angeles and recieved a 9.981 with little more than a wash and a wax. A month later I showed it again, this time I spent days preparing the car, shampooing the carpets, working on a fine wax, every nook and cranny. 9.935!

Wow, you might ask. How could there be such a marked difference? One main reason. The concours in LA is held under a canopy of messy trees, though not by choice of the concours committee, and 10 minutes after rags down all the cars which get *lucky* enough to be parked under the trees are covered in pollen, leaves etc. I didnt get a single hit for paint scratches in LA. In San Diego, its bright sun and a lot of it and no messy trees to be had, every single paint mark is visible.

This year the trees in LA were less messy and I got a sunnier spot and my scores were 9.955 and 9.966 respectively, I think very representative of what I think the car should have scored. I have no idea how you compensate for this given the wide range of weather conditions and outside influences like trees and such short of requiring in a dusty or treed environment that a car dusting take place immediately prior to judging.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Pascal,
On all E-type FHC's including 2+2's, the area behind the seats is considerred part of the interior and judged by the interior judge, not the engine/boot judge as was my recent experience. This area is best judged with the hatch open. The area under the "boot board" that contains the spare tire is considerred the boot on these models, and should be judged by the engine/boot judge. The boot board has a pin style securing device and it takes considerable skill and experience to reset the boot board correctly in its intended position. Deductions for scratches around the pin's reciever should not be taken as this is a type of latch.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

I have never been in a concours I entered in Driven Class when the area behind the rear seats on my 69 2+2 was not judged. I thought the boot on coupes and 2+2s referred strictly to the area under the boot boards (if that is the correct term), where the spare tire and petrol tank reside.

Regards, John

Stew... re the FHC/2+2 E-types... so what is the correct answer? is the area behind the rear seat considered the boot and not judged in driven or is it considered part of the cabin?

when I entered mine in Driven, the answer changed at almost every concours...

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Stew: while I am in agreement with everything you have said, my real point, I guess, was a small one: lighting conditions. Now, clearly, we have concours events on overcast days, rainy days, hazy days, sunny days,late morning, early afternoon, and so on. There is no way of standardising this. But I wonder if the use of tents (which provide a visual shelter for the cars, giving them an advantage over cars judged in harsh daylight) is appropriate. I have to say that as a judge I would be delighted to be under a tent all day (and I do wonder how you would get through the judging of 30 or more cars if you have to wait for them to be driven to the single judging spot).
It is the *creation* of an advantage (that is, having them judged in shade) for cars judged in one concours vs. another (most, in fact, in which the cars are judged in open daylight), that I feel may be inappropriate. I don't intend to make any issue of this, nor is this intended as a criticism of any club that does use shelter, but I am interested in how people feel about this given our desire for consistency.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1990 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8

Gregory,
I was there too, and was appalled at the way my paint looked in that bright sun, it never looked that bad before and there was little I could do about it. The sun and heat were relentless; the temperature must have broken all records, but I think weather has to be a part of the competition just like track temperature plays an important part in racing (where there are no rules to compensate for it) sunlight will always be a part of Concours. Come to think of it, I can't think of competive endeavor that doesn't require a bit of luck. Your suggestion to judge cars under the same lighting conditions throughout North America sounds simple, but would be very difficult to practice (although we did have a tent at our Forest Grove affair that you also attended). I think if we used the tent, it would have taken us at least twice as long to get all the cars judged even if we could have done seven at a time as we did outdoors.

However, I was much more concerned with the quality of the judges and heard rumors that the club in question had not had a judgesÆ school, so who were the clubÆs certified judges? JOCO had four in attendance and you of course are certified by virtue of you Chief JudgeÆs status. So, as near as I can tell, all teams did have at least one certified judge, thanks to our respective clubs supplying certified guest judges. When the engine/boot judge started filling out his score sheet while looking at the area behind the seats of my 69Æ E-Type2+2, I had to ask him what he was doing û it became apparent that he never judged a FHC or 2+2 before and he openly admitted to not ever having judged a Series 2 E-Type, but he did say the he had read parts of the Series 2 JudgesÆ Guide (bless him). My point is, we need to start enforcing the rules that we have rather than making new ones that will be ignored. A simple easy to administer rule would be to require a copy of the Judges School announcement (as it appeared in the clubÆs newsletter) in order to qualify for a sanctioned Concours.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
\'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC\'s