Can a Concours Chair protest a car in their same class? What are the rules?

Art Dickenson.
1983 XJS GT \"Silver\""

Richard,

Thanks for the clarification. It sounds to me like the right decision was made in the end, and that the system worked. It ain't broke. So we won't try to fix it. Too often, the cure is worse than the illness, so best to leave things alone unless absolutely necessary to change things.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
JCNA Northeast Regional Director

Art,
Your assessment of the Protest Committee was correct.
They stated that
1. Only an "entrant" can protest, not a concours chair.
2. they have thoroughly investigated this incident and have received six e- mails from other entrants stating that they, themselves, and others they were aware of, left the grounds early without permission and without being
penalized. Only Mr. Wright is being disqualified.

3. "It is my opinion that Mr. Wright should not have been penalized, and his
points should be returned."

Thanx everyone for your support and insights!
Now to get ready for next year!

Richard Wright
1966 Mk X: 2004 CO8 National Champion
1972 Vista Cruiser Hurst Olds
1960 Austin Healey 3000 V8 350hp to the ground!

Art Dickenson.
1983 XJS GT \"Silver\""

Richard----You posted on a open forum a story that I read (as did others) with awe. My first thoughts were that your club needs to take care of this situation. If this has been going on for some time why would your club make this person the chair?

As far as trying to "get you in trouble" I am not. I simply asked questions based on the only information you cared to share. If this information was flawed "(your word technicallity)" was the rest accurate. You are asking about and complaining about an area of JCNA that is pure technicatllity--ie. rules and regulations for sanctioned shows.

I share your concerns that this type of situation never happens and if so is corrected with wrath.

However your club seems to be the first level of redress. Failing to find the relief there you can go to JCNA but without support of your club I am afraid you will get little satisfaction. Remember it is Jaguar Club(S) of NA not Jaguar Club. I am sorry your friendship has ended (guessing that from the help you gave) but if all of this is true it is sad.

I am doing what little I can on the JCRC under our leaders guidance (Dick) to fill the holes in the rule book. I will observe we are seeming to have more protests from non owners these days.

George Camp

George,
I was trying to express that "I actively participated in the running of the Concours" in which I was protested!
(I have even helped this individual in other ways. This year I even gave him a 4.2 engine to get a nice XJ6 running, and got under his Mk8 and helped him bleed brakes in a bank parking lot while wearing nice clothes!)

George I didn't know you would try to get me in TROUBLE for a a few word technicallity. I will watch it from now on!!!! To clarify again...I did not perform the Tech inspection on my own car!
My competitor needs no amunition to manipulate. Thank JC, the protest period is over!

George, ya never know, I may get to judge YOUR Jaguar someday. I will be technical!

Kidding aside, I certainly do appreciate George's and everyone else's participation in this thread.

NOW, I don't want to see "WHO" happened to me ever happen to anyone again.
Does anyone think I have enough "stuff" to have the Concours Chair's membership revoked by the JCNA?
"Who" is not local or National "Club Friendly".
"WHO" has protested every show this year (some twice), and maybe every show they have ever participated in over the last 3 to 4 years.
They have a HISTORY of CONFLICT in the JCNA!
I was just their latest intended victim.
A one year sanction will only bring them back with a vengence.
What is the process to have their membership revoked?.
And how can I strenthen this revocation?

Happy H's

Richard Wright
37 years of Jaguars!
20+ years JCNA
1966 Mk X
1972 Vista Cruiser
1960 Austin Healey 3000

Just read what you wrote. George Camp

Pascal-- thanks for reading all of the post as usual.You are correct sir. George Camp

Not trying to muddy the water. I simply read what he wrote"I did ALL the technical inspections. He even put the word "ALL" in caps. Just for argument sake what if his car would have finished 3rd if someone else had done the tech. This came up earlier this year and the exec. com. ruled over the protest com. and dumped the score of a tech. inspector who checked his own car. George Camp

Sorry, I did not mean contestants should have to stay around for evening awards dinners, I have never been to a Concours where the trophies were not handed out immediately after judging. I was assuming that was what was meant in the original post. If thats not the case, my apologies, it is certainly silly to mandate attendance at a banquet, hours after the event, and which is usually at additional cost.

From what I have seen most clubs have gone over to just handing out awards immediately following judging. Leaving the field before that process would certainly seem to fall within the rules for disqualification.

I believe the rules permit the discretion of the chief judge to make exceptions for special situation.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Pascal,
BCS = Bowl Champion Series, the folks that select who plays in what football bowl game to (suposedly) determine the college national football champion.

THBOMK = to the best of my knowledge.

burning houses = the headline, about two days ago, that alledgedly traced the arsons in Maryland to members of a local car club.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
\'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC\'s

Mike

not trying to open another can of worm here, but that's not what the protest com. report says

Stew... BCS? THBOM ? burning houses? ?? :-)

Pascal

George,
I didn't think you had a sense of humor! On the bright side, JCNA is no where near as messed up as the BCS, and THBOMK, no affiliate is running around burning down houses.
Happy Holidays to All!
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
\'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC\'s

Hey George,
Very Funny!
My Tech inspection assistant and the Head Judge teched my MKX. Ya shoulda know better! Remember, Santa is watching!
Richard Wright
1966 Mk X
1972 Vista Cruiser
1960 Austin Healey 3000

Pascal,
Just to set the record straight, that judge DID NOT judge his own car.
Mike
1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

i believe George's remark comes from the fact that there was a protest earlier this year on a concours where a club used one mechanical only judging team to do all the cars independently of the rest of the judging. In the process, one of the judges judged his own car.

while one cna argue than mechanical isn't subjective... it either work or doesn't... that judge's score was thrown.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club

George did you just write that to muddy the waters or is that genuinely what you believe he meant by what he wrote. If by any chance that were true. You have to admit he did a lousy job with judging his own car placing it second in a class made up of only two cars in addition to giving himself his second lowest score of the year. The minds boggles at such skullduggery.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry
NC Regional high point D06 2004.

Having read all of this I submit JCNA should make a movie about it. Get Mel Gibson to play the lead and call it Con-piracy Theory. I am sure this will be sorted out but if what I read is accurate Mr Wright judged his own car. He states he "did all the tech" inspections. Where have we seen this before? Will the executive committee get involved? Stay tuned. George Camp

Bob,
She is the car, of course. And she is a real peach. We consider her a part of the family and love her dearly. I usually share a tablespoon of warm Castrol HD30 with her and kiss her leaper before retiring for the evening!

I don't think you need to be concerned about this whole situation. It is so rediculous that I am confident that the executive committee will throw it out. Good luck and Merry Christmas.
Mike
1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHEs

In my experience with JCNA Concour events there is once in a while persons who are beaten fair and square and do not like it or accept it. Some guy's launch a protest in an effort to appease themselves, others quit the club and sell their cars.
The Chief Judge is the person I believe who can disqualify persons right on the spot, the Concour Chair is correctly powerless in comparison to the Chief Judge. The idea to not allow Chairs to show their cars would hurt many persons doing the job in an admirable fashion.
I have never heard of any cases like this one before, in the North West Region trophies are usually handed out at the evening banquet. Regardless whether the trophy winners attend the banquet they all receive their awards in due course, usually a friend picks up the trophy and passes it on at the next club activity or when they see the person next. Anyone who is disqualified for not attending the awards ceremony or the banquet should file a protest immidiately to the Protest Chair, currently Randy Prine, within 30 days of the event.
I am sure this ludicrous activity will be sorted out very quickly by the JCNA Officers in charge of this kind of misaction.
Merry Christmas to all Concour Chairs, participants, the workers, and everyone else involved in the showing , and exercising of our great cats Internationally in North America,
Sincerely , Art Dickenson.

Art Dickenson.
1983 XJS GT \"Silver\""

I have to agree with most of the sentiments of shock being expressed here. I will add that if any such protest was to hold up and this gentleman concours chairperson was to succeed in his quest to have the North American award presented to him. It will in my opinion cause irrevocable damage to the prestige, if any presently exists, in winning such an award in the future.

On another subject, I have to ask, "More affectionately known as PEACHES" does this refer to you or your car. :)

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

Richard,
I have been following this thread and I can honestly say that I can not believe what I am reading. This whole thing sounds like sour grapes to me. The person that has initiated this protest is only interested in his own agenda and has no regard for his fellow members. It is self serving people like this that destroy the fun element. Dump him now. Your club will be stronger without him.
Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Pascal,
I did no know the protest committee could reject/ accept a protest. I thought they were just filed and decided on.I do not know if the protest is accepted yet, or denied or what.
This is all new to me. I am not a professional protestant, just a defendant.
Thanx,
Richard Wright
1966 Mk X
1972 Vista Cruiser
1960 Austin Healey 3000

Richard, Pascal and interested parties,

The Protest Committee Chair will likely decide if the matter is either appropriate or timely for consideration or if it is actually a JCNA "administrative" matter and forwarded to the JCNA Vice President.

From a purely "JCNA Concours Rules" standpoint, no rule appears to have been broken since Mr. Wright did not depart until after the awards had been announced.

On the other hand, if the Concours Chair and the Chief Judge believed a JCNA rule (not a State Fair of Texas rule) had been broken, they could have made an on-site decision to disqualify an Entrant/Entry; such a disqualification would NOT have to be announced to the Protest Committee.

However, once the Entrant was notified of his or her disqualification, it would be their place to file an immediate protest if THEY believed their treatment was contrary to JCNA rules.

The protest process is intended to accommodate Entrants seeking recourse for possible judging rule infractions, not for one Entrant to accuse another nor for concours officials to seek endorsement or approval of their actions.

Regards,
Dick Cavicke
Chair, Judge's Concours Rules Committee

Edited on 2004-12-23 17:33:58

Pascal,
I did not know the protest committee could reject/ accept a protest. I thought they were just filed and decided on.I do not know if the protest is accepted yet, or denied or what.
This is all new to me. I am not a professional protestant, just a defendant.
Thanx,
Richard Wright
1966 Mk X
1972 Vista Cruiser
1960 Austin Healey 3000

Richard,

are you sure that the protest has been accepted and is being evaluated by the protest committee? afaik, one can only protest his own score... not another competitor.

The rule book is pretty clear about leavin the field : "2. Leaving the Concours Field Except in unusual circumstances, competing Entries should not be allowed to leave the Concours field until the conclusion of the Concours or until judging and scoring have been completed for the class in which the vehicles are entered. If an Entra nt leaves thefield prematurely (for whatever reason) and their Entry, or the entire class in which they
were entered, requires re-judging, they will be eliminated from the competition."

it doesn't require entrants to stay after jduging is completed and scores completed.

as to the date of the protest, the only way to verify this is to see the original email, the complete email with headers. clicking forward doesn't work... the email must be sent as an attachement.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Fellow Jaguar Enthusiasts,
Thanx for your responses.
I will try to address your questions, and please feel free to ask more specific questions, as I do not want someone else to go through the same drawn out problems I have endured to be National Champ in CO8.
I have been driving Jags for 37 years, and have been in 3 different Jaguar JCNA clubs over 25+ years. I have never heard of muddier water to defend a Championship! It's hard enough to prepare the car, much less have to fight officers in your own club, well after the concours season is over, when you know you won a close competion "Fair and Square" and by JCNA rules.

Daniel, I actually helped in the running of the concours. I helped in the parking of cars, I did ALL the Technical Inspections on the score sheets, and judged 3 classes. I am JCNA tested judge. I have been judging for 20+ years. I STAYED WELL AFTER THE AWARDS, and enjoyed being with my Jaguar comrads. THEIR WAS NO REJUDGING OF THE CLASS REQUESTED. My mkX came in 2nd place that day.
I did sign a form stating I would stay till 7pm, but I left about the same time the year before and for the same reason.: my son had a roller hockey game that evening!
After the Concours, my score was posted on the JCNA website and even became "Official" after 45 days. Several contestants at the State Fair of Texas Concours, put on by the Jaguar Driver's Club of North Texas (JDCNT)left before me, and several others after me but before the 7pm, and none of their scores were protested. I have e.mails from them stating that, as well does Randy Prine. I am trying to defend myself, believe me!
I was the only competitor for the Concours Chair, not just at this show, but the only close competitor on a national scale. Their MK8 is a very nice car, but it is very updated and non-authentic, requiring them to protest EVERY SHOW THEY WERE IN THIS SEASON (and some of them twice) to raise their scores to stay in contention. I posted info on that on the another JCNA forum.
The mk8 was in 1st place til after the Houston Concours(NICE SHOW GUYS!)when my MK10 scores were posted on Nov 13,2004. Then the mkX was in 1st place through Nov30th. On Dec 1, I checked again, and the MKX was now in 2nd place? I discovered my score had been removed with my knowledge. I got on the pnone and the computer, and finally my Regional Director had my score from the JDCNT show reinstated. "Finally, Its over" I thought.
Then I received an e.mail from Randy Prine on Dec. 14th stating that my score was being protested again, based on a (back?) dated email dated Nov 14th, from the concours chair, for leaving early.

Steve Weinstein,
What I have learned from this is: PROTESTS NEED TO HAVE CERTIFIABLE DATES!
Anyone can take a FORWARDED e.mail and change it's dates and addresses and contents to their liking.
The JCNA may have to keep a PO Box for DATE CERTIFIED MAIL for protests, or maybe as Pascal has noted, e.mails can only be DATE STAMPED on their ATTACHMENTS. BASICALLY A PROTEST WILL HAVE TO BE WRITTEN IN A WORD PROCESSING PROGRAM, AND THEN BE ATTACHED TO THE E.MAIL.
As FOR THE PERSONS FILeING THESE SELF SERVING PROTESTS, AND FOR ABUSING THEIR OFFICE FOR SELFISH REASONS..I think they should be banned from the JCNA. They have shown a pattern of behavior that is destructive to club members, even if they have great enthusiasm for the Marque.
We should be "Contestants", not "Protestants".
They will be addressed at the AGM.

Clubs are suppose to be FUN. Competition can be tough if you want to compete in that arena; the JCNA rules are as fair as can be.
Being Judged by your peers in 3 or more shows is a great equalizer.
I hope the Protest Committee rules soon. I appreciate your interest in bettering the JCNA! I just wish the Concours Season was over for me, as it is for evryone else! It's almost CHRISTMAS!Happy H's!
Richard Wright

1966 Mk X
1972 Vista Cruiser
1960 Austin Healey 3000

Fellow Jaguar Enthusiasts,
Thanx for your responses.
I will try to address your questions, and please feel free to ask more specific questions, as I do not want someone else to go through the same drawn out problems I have endured to be National Champ in CO8.
I have been driving Jags for 37 years, and have been in 3 different Jaguar JCNA clubs over 25+ years. I have never heard of muddier water to defend a Championship! It's hard enough to prepare the car, much less have to fight officers in your own club, well after the concours season is over, when you know you won a close competion "Fair and Square" and by JCNA rules.

Daniel, I actually helped in the running of the concours. I helped in the parking of cars, I did ALL the Technical Inspections on the score sheets, and judged 3 classes. I am JCNA tested judge. I have been judging for 20+ years. I STAYED WELL AFTER THE AWARDS, and enjoyed being with my Jaguar comrads. THEIR WAS NO REJUDGING OF THE CLASS REQUESTED. My mkX came in 2nd place that day.
I did sign a form stating I would stay till 7pm, but I left about the same time the year before and for the same reason.: my son had a roller hockey game that evening!
After the Concours, my score was posted on the JCNA website and even became "Official" after 45 days. Several contestants at the State Fair of Texas Concours, put on by the Jaguar Driver's Club of North Texas (JDCNT)left before me, and several others after me but before the 7pm, and none of their scores were protested. I have e.mails from them stating that, as well does Randy Prine. I am trying to defend myself, believe me!
I was the only competitor for the Concours Chair, not just at this show, but the only close competitor on a national scale. Their MK8 is a very nice car, but it is very updated and non-authentic, requiring them to protest EVERY SHOW THEY WERE IN THIS SEASON (and some of them twice) to raise their scores to stay in contention. I posted info on that on the another JCNA forum.
The mk8 was in 1st place til after the Houston Concours(NICE SHOW GUYS!)when my MK10 scores were posted on Nov 13,2004. Then the mkX was in 1st place through Nov30th. On Dec 1, I checked again, and the MKX was now in 2nd place? I discovered my score had been removed with my knowledge. I got on the pnone and the computer, and finally my Regional Director had my score from the JDCNT show reinstated. "Finally, Its over" I thought.
Then I received an e.mail from Randy Prine on Dec. 14th stating that my score was being protested again, based on a (back?) dated email dated Nov 14th, from the concours chair, for leaving early.

Steve Weinstein,
What I have learned from this is: PROTESTS NEED TO HAVE CERTIFIABLE DATES!
Anyone can take a FORWARDED e.mail and change it's dates and addresses and contents to their liking.
The JCNA may have to keep a PO Box for DATE CERTIFIED MAIL for protests, or maybe as Pascal has noted, e.mails can only be DATE STAMPED on their ATTACHMENTS. BASICALLY A PROTEST WILL HAVE TO BE WRITTEN IN A WORD PROCESSING PROGRAM, AND THEN BE ATTACHED TO THE E.MAIL.
As FOR THE PERSONS FILeING THESE SELF SERVING PROTESTS, AND FOR ABUSING THEIR OFFICE FOR SELFISH REASONS..I think they should be banned from the JCNA. They have shown a pattern of behavior that is destructive to club members, even if they have great enthusiasm for the Marque.
We should be "Contestants", not "Protestants".
They will be addressed at the AGM.

Clubs are suppose to be FUN. Competition can be tough if you want to compete in that arena; the JCNA rules are as fair as can be.
Being Judged by your peers in 3 or more shows is a great equalizer.
I hope the Protest Committee rules soon. I appreciate your interest in bettering the JCNA! I just wish the Concours Season was over for me, as it is for evryone else! It's almost CHRISTMAS!Happy H's!
Richard Wright

1966 Mk X
1972 Vista Cruiser
1960 Austin Healey 3000

I would add that I am a member of the same club as Richard and was totally stunned to learn of the events of which he speaks. I think this ordeal goes to show that there is definitely a need for a JCNA rule prohibiting concours chairpersons (or any member of their immediate family) from entering any car in their own concours or, if allowed to do so, not be eligible for points and/or any awards, IMHO. There is just too much opportunity otherwise for possible abuse of power and other conflicts of interest.

I was responding to Daniel, who mentioned leaving *before the awards* justifed disqualification.

I just re-read the orignal posting and is states "......because I left after the awards."

Either way, I agree that we need more specifics. I can see no reason to DSQ someone because he left before the award ceremony. However, as mentioned, most clubs require you to stay on the field until a specified time. Leaving before *that* time may shed a different light on the matter although, as Pascal has mentioned, making the decision to penalize Richard a month after the fact doesn't sound kosher, especially when doing so elevates the Concour Chair's own car to a first place standing. Something does smell a bit fishy here.

Richard, could you please clarify the situation? (No offense to you, but there are always two sides to a story). And now that the matter has been broached I'd like to hear what JCNA is doing to investigate the matter.

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe
JCCV

Edited on 2004-12-22 10:12:57

Edited on 2004-12-22 10:08:42

I'm confused. Maybe I need more information, or I'm just not understanding what I'm reading. Did this actually happen? Was Richard disqualified and was his score removed one month after the event for not attending the awards ceremony in the evening? I've never heard of such a thing. I have heard clubs say that cars must stay on the field until a certain time, when all judging is completed, but stay for the awards dinner or be DQ'ed? It makes no sense. I checked the standings on the concours page, and Richard is still in first place in C08. Am I not understanding what happened?

I, for one, would like to have more information about what actually happened. If this occurred, I'd like to address it at the AGM this year and clear this up, once and for all. As I recall, there is a rule that says that no one will judge in a class in which they have a car entered. If the chief judge had a car entered in a particular class, he should be barred from making any decisions that would effect that class, period. But no club should be maintaining a rule, local or otherwise, that penalizes any participant after the show is over and judging is completed on the field.

My $.02. I hope we can get more information about this so that we know exactly what actually happened, and, if necessary, make the necessary changes in the rules to assure that such this situation is clarified and any possible penalties or conflicts are avoided in the future. Or in the end, is this much ado about nothing? Someone please clarify.

Steve Weinstein
JCNA Northeast Regional Director

I have yet to attended a JCNA sanctioned concours in the NC or NE regions where it has been mandatory to attend the awards banquet.

Without exception the rules have been that you agree not to remove your car from the show field until released by the chief judge. This is interpreted as being after all the judging has been satisfactorily concluded and the chief judge has ascertained that there does not remain any outstanding conflicts or disputes to be settled.

If I was you I would be pulling up a copy of the entry form you signed and check the wording on that to see what the restrictions were for that particular show.

Bob.
92 V-12 VDP Black Cherry

Doug, I fully agree. what we've been doing now is give the awards right after the show, while the cars are still there. it's a little more work for the bean counters but those coming from out of town like it.

we also do a drive in award presentation where each participant drives his car over to receive the award. VERY popular. takes a little more effort, you need a little more space on the field but well worth it. participants and spectators love it, and it's a wonderful photo opp. heck,... i want to see the car ... that's "who" really won.. i dont' want to see some white haired guy :-)

i think this particular problem had to do with "breaking down" the display while the fair or main show was still going on. Regardless, if the concours chair thought richard shoudl have been DSQ'd for violating a local rule, then the score should have never been reported. Reporting the score, then waiting a month to DSQ him and promote the concours chair to first north american is at the very least poor judgement.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Edited on 2004-12-22 9:42:52

"Fully Justified" to actually disqualify a contestant for not attending the award ceremony? A bit harsh, I'd say. Surely you meant to say "unjustified" ???

I myself generally attend the ceremonies but others I've known have missed the award ceremony and I have never heard of disapproval. Maybe the clubs up here in the Pacific NW are just less formal ?

At any rate, it hardly deserves disqualification. What kind of message does that send? I can hear it now. "Oh, by the way. We know the show is over at 2:30 and that the award banquet starts at 7:00, but even though you'd like to get a head-start on your 300 mile drive home, you will be disqualified if you don't attend the ceremony. Thanks, though, for attending our show and paying the club entry fee. Yeah, we know it isn't actually a JCNA rule...but...well....we just sorta make this stuff up as we go along, especially if we don't like you."

Fiddlesticks.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

That sounds ridiculous. It was also my understanding that a contestant could only file a formal protest with regards to thier own score and not the score of another contestant. Im sure this groundless protest will be denied.

It also sounds as though this particular concours chair should be "retired" as soon as possible. Next time though, try not to leave before the awards, that is considered extremely rude and is grounds for disqualification in most concours and had the concours chair DQd you at a reasonable time, it would have been fully justified.

The JCNA protest comitte can have an entire class be disqualified but its my understanding there would have had to be some impropriety with judging, a class could not be DQd because someone left early.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0

it's my understanding of the rule book than you can only file a protest to get your own score corrected. ex... if the guy next to me at a concours gets no deduct for a hot rod flame paint job and beats me... I wouldn't even be able protest that! I guess the purpose of that rule is keep thing civil :-)

Now, the concours chief judge can decide to DSQ someone if they broke a rule but could they do it after the 3 week score reporting deadline? no rule against I guess except common sense and fairness.

Seems to me that if a rule was so important as to DSQ someone, not only they shoudl be notified right away but the score would not be reported, left to stand for a month or two and then changed.

Pascal