Denial to entering concours

The only issues I have had at Concours have been with individual judges and scores that were so far apart they didnt make much sense. There is one judge, who shall remain nameless, whom I will withdraw my car and go home rather than let this person judge my car again. Well, first I will request that the chief judge give me a different judging team, then Ill go home.

I spend a lot of time and effort and some decent money preparing my car and I think its a lot of fun too, but I do deserve the best we have to offer as far as judging is concerned. Every JCNA member does, and Dick Cavicke and others on the rules and scoring teams are making it happen with more consistent judging rules and guides.

Not getting our club's best, entitles me to let someone know, but does not entitle the Concours chair or cheif judge to ban me from future events just because I complain.

I havent had an issue yet, but I can see how it might happen.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

I appreciate the offer to talk Bob. I may be coming off wrong here, and for that I am sorry. I edit the newsletter for my club (JACO) and admitted in an editorial that the folks I have met at British Car Shows are by far the nicest group I have been around. Ive been showing cars for 18 years, but only two with a British car, and it's no comparison. I have been very pleased with the folks I have encountered. That is why when I learn about situations from my earlier experiences with a different crowd, well, I just don't want to see that happen here.

Tom Kipp
89 XJ-S Coupe

Tom,
I have no idea of which club or people you that you might be referring too but I can tell you that Darlene and I have shown Jags in at least 70 Concours over the past 22 years and have never had a problem with any of the Concours chairman, chief judges etc. On the other hand I've also been the chief judge for the Michigan club for the past 18 years and over that time have had several entrants that were not very pleasant people but we managed to put up with them. Both of these people were "point chasers" and the first words out of their mouths upon arrival to anyone that would listen was how they got screwed at-----. There's good and bad in any group but it's been our experience that the folks involved with the JCNA clubs are as good as you're likely to find.
If you'd like to talk about this you're welcome to call me anytime before midnight at 734-455-5039.
Bob Stevenson Jag of Michigan

This has been informative. I see it all this way. Wherever you go in life, you will come across people you don't like, and the feeling is usually mutual. However, especially in situations such as organizations as large as JCNA that has a reputation to uphold, all must work and play well with each other for the good of the order. I understand the whole Federal Government/State anology, but, if something unacceptable occurs at one locale, that reflects on all of us. That is unfair, but is reality. Years ago I went to see the Mopar Nationals here in town. I drove my 4-4-2, not to "crash the party," but for transportation. Some Mopar owners upon my arrival dumped beer on my car and broke bottles on it and told me to get my "bleeping piece of bleep out of there." For the slower crowwd, they really didn't say bleep. To this day I hold a lot of animosity towards Mopar folks (including the wife who owns a Chrysler, but that's another story). Those rubes did not represent the majority of Mopar folks, I hope, but hey, the image stuck. I shudder to think of any newcomers who witnessed some of the events I have recently heard about. I wasn't there, but being part of JCNA, it made me look equally bad.

I have personally experienced, in other organizations, folks who get a position of power and go nuts with it. They are going to surround themselves with like minded folks, who are grabbing onto what they feel as positions of authority, and before you know it it's a little autocracy. To be blunt, if the biggest feeling of satisfaction you get is being lord over a recreational club and imposing your will like Caesar, ya kinda need to evaluate your pathetic little existance. Been there, dealt with it. If you folks ever meet me at a show, ask me about IPMS. I don't want to see this group be like that.

Here are my suggestions, for what it's worth. There needs to be a uniform set of rules at the national level of "prohibited" behavior. I can see this escalating to a point where someone who is ranking very well is denied entry to a show for very vague reasons, only because an organizer may be competing against them and wants to hinder a ranking. Pretty petty for the stakes involved I think. We're not going after a million dollar purse, were going after a trophy and some notariety, and with that, if you hawk the trophy, you may be able to buy lunch.

If someone is in violation of said rules, they must be officially notified of the "specific" violations, no vague comments like "they were disruptive." How were they disruptive. Details folks, details. The accused should have formal appeals rights.

If enforced, it should be approved by national and possibly ban them from all events for a specified time. Makes no sense to have someone banned from city A and welcomed in city B. I thought only in the Soviet Union were folks punished based upon vague accusations.

I don't know about all of you, but I join clubs for fun. Showing my car is fun. Meeting good people is fun. Occasionally winning something is fun, but if I don't, I still had fun. If I wanted to deal with petty personality conflicts and grudges, I'd stay home with my family and not go to shows.

Let's keep everything in perspective and consistant is all I ask. And the burden of proof should be on the accuser, not the accused.

Tom Kipp
89 XJ-S Coupe

Stew,

it may be a privilege to enter a club's event, but for sanctioned events the local clubs need to consider the implications of barring a JCNA member in good standing from entering an event. It certainly shoudln't be a 1 or 2 persons decision and the local club may have to justify its decision and preventing a member to enter shoudl be a last resort action for serious infringmenets. Not because of "bad blood" or if the member argued about something a year before.

pascal

I appreciate the responses so far. I do concour, I have seen entrants at just about every show that I have attended in the past that, well, to put it mildly really need a lot more bran in their diet. I also understand the annoyance by Judges when an entrant elects themselves as an "honorary" judge and makes a nuisance of themselves. I generally leave the judges alone (except at my first concours where I was real nervous and almost backed over a judge who wanted to make sure my reverse lights worked, real sorry about that). I've also witnessed various amounts of "trash talk" between owners, sometimes good natured, sometimes not. I saw one entrant once who yelled at the judges for "letting it rain." I didn't know you guys had that kind of power, I'm real impressed:) Still, none of these actions warrant blackballing.

I guess where I'm coming from is if someone disputes their score, at the appropriate time and venue, and then being ostracized seems to be overkill. Heck, if the judges don't laugh at my car, I'm a happy camper. I did have one judge order me to remove my Hula Doll from the rear window before he judged. I did, but Hilo (my doll's name, she dances when I go over bumps) was offended. Her grass skirt even matches my car, so I thought she looked just fine. Rules are rules though, so I complied.

Showing up intoxicated, being overly belligerent to the point of threatening, etc. are all valid reasons to blackball someone. In fact, that behavior should be reported to national in my opinion and the person's JCNA membership should be evaluated. But barring the obvious (not to offend, but like the common explanation of pornography, there is no definite description, but you know it when you see it) folks should be allowed to participate if their eccentricities are at worst, an eye rolling annoyance. Heck, sometimes those folks are fun to watch, and the crowd generally doesn't pay attention anyway, they're too busy letting their kids with chocolate covered fingers rub their hands down our cars. That doesn't bug me too much either since my own son exploded a powdered donut next to mine once after rags down.

I appreciate the responses. It has been very informative.

Tom Kipp
89 XJ-S Coupe

An example might be showing up at registration in a very bad mood (and drunk-or close to it) arguing that the pre registration was wrong (although they filled it out). Another example might be someone who although warned for a couple years continued to follow the judges team and point out what he felt was wrong with other entrants cars. What would you do for these folks. George Camp

Like my parents taught me, if I couldn't play nice with my toys they'd find a child who could. To this day, I don't know if they were going to trade me, or just give my toys away!

Bob, per Pascal, we're supposed to keep personalities out of this discussion.

Tom, In my near ten years as Chief Judge, I've never experienced behavior that would warrant an outright ban on future attendance, but a couple of times I've wanted to stick binkies in a few peoples mouths and send them to the corner. I've also seen behavior at other Concours that, if demonstrated at our Concours, would have resulted in the Entrant's score sheet being ripeed up and the person disquailfied for that particular show, but a ban on future attendance - no haven't seen anything that bad yet.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

The entrant denied entry should bring the situation to the attention of their regional director(s) and , lets hope that the director and the Concours head are not the same person. If indeed the entrant did not break protocol and rules and was denied entry , then the club in question should be contacted and asked for an explanation. It is JCNA's purview to make sure local clubs are not acting like country sheriffs and running roughshod over their membership and guests, its a national club after all.

In general I find the folks who run Concours to be very level headed and patient individuals, so I cannot imagine what this person did to cause this kind of reaction. To say the least both parties probably need to reevaluate their attitudes and positions , get together and work whatever problem they have out.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Jim,
If this had been a few years ago I think we could all guess of a name! Nuff said!
Bob

Bob,
Tom is fron the North central region but I have no idea of this situation at any of the concours I've attended in the region recently

JIm Baker
NC29 JACO

Tom, out of curiosity what region are you in?
Bob Stevenson
Jag of Mi.

George and Stew, both very valid points. Now, if I may be so bold to ask, what specific types of behavior would cause a club to ask folks not to return? Without naming names, and George you said you knew of a couple, what did folks do? I am going somewhere with this, trust me.

Tom Kipp
89 XJ-S Coupe

George,
This left coaster agrees with you. Along your line of thought, the following was cut from the registration form found on the Concours Page of this site:

JCNA Event Participation: It is an Entrant's privilege to participate in any JCNA sanctioned event held by any JCNA affiliate upon executing proper registration forms and paying published entrance fees. Each affiliate shall be solely responsible for granting entry privileges to each Entrant on an individual basis.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
\'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC\'s

If you think of JCNA as the Federal Govt. and the Clubs as States an arguement could be made that the club (not an individual) could refuse entry to anyone they chose to deny participation. Not saying it would be good form but if the club wanted exclusion I am not sure there is anything that can be done about it. Our club for example has a couple of people in the region who have been so disruptive that they have been asked to not return. They have been told well in advance not that day. Interesting situation. George Camp

yeah let's keep it hypothetical :-)

i don't see how a local club could refuse an entry as long as they are still accepting entries. If they wish not to accept entries on the mornign of the concours, they should clearly state the pre registration requirement on their entry forms and in the official calendar here on JCNA.com some clubs require pre registration for judged classes so that they can plan their judging team, I think JTC (NJ) does that, but they clearly mention it.

I woudl suggest that you contact the club president and copy your regional directors. "bad blood" is no reason to refuse a registration.

Let's keep this hypothetical. I wish to keep all parties anonymous. There was nothing to do with capacity. There was plenty of room and additional walk-in's were being taken.

Let's say there was "bad blood" between an entrant and a person in charge of a concours therefore the entrant, who had never broken any rules or protocol, was told to leave.

Hypothetically

Tom Kipp
89 XJ-S Coupe

The only other reason I can think of other than being a non Jaguar powered vehicle, are failure to register for the Concours in the required period. Clubs have the legitimate right to deny entry to a "walk in" based on capacity of the field, the avaliable number of judges, trophies and other logistical reasons. Pre registering for shows is required by many clubs.

Can you outline your specific problem so we can identify if it was something out of the ordinary?

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Why?, was somebody denied entry? I know there are reasons to deny a car, such as not Jaguar powered, but I don't know of any set reasons to deny a member.