Regionals and Nationals

Mike,
Further to one of your earlier posts, while there are 6000 members and "only" 19 or so that have become involved with this discussion, I disagree with your conclusion that this is necessarily "sad". Your forums are indeed a wonderful tool to express ideas and comments but are also a wonderful tool to become exposed to ideas and comments and the length of this thread would seem to prove rather than disprove that.
One of the things your conclusion fails to take into account is the passion, enthusiasm and reputation of many of the 19 and their impact on overall postings to any particular thread, not just this one. I am sure many of the "other" 5,981 agree with one side of this issue or the other but feel that the discussions being posted already eloquently put forward their opinion. This does not mean they do not have an opinion or do not care, just that posting it often seems to be redundant (as would posting the same solution to a forum for a mechanical problem for the second, third or fourth time in the same thread).
I also think there is more than a small amount of respect and/or awe behind this particular forum as well - after all, if you have your heart set on something you would be happy to just be able to display without looking foolish, it is difficult to publicly disagree with a 9.990 enthusiast striving to be a 9.995 (sorry about using numbers - I am trying to illustrate a point and not identify or identify with anyone in particular). When you think that an issue is unlikely to ever affect you directly, there is a tendency to let those who will be most affected resolve it (rightly or wrongly).
I wholeheartedly agree that Pascal (and his ten finger crew!) indeed do a wonderful job making this a very user friendly site but a perceived lack of postings in many cases will in fact reflect this rather than indicate otherwise.
In regard to your question as to why such a small percentage of membership attends the national event, I would have to wonder if part of that answer is not already apparent from both sides of this thread. How many attend or would attend events not just to compete but to learn and to be able to admire first hand both those cars that win and those that do not. This would certainly include cars that may have "in-transit" damage - regardless of whether it is judged or not - as long as they are actually there (although this may warrant a new and different thread rather than confusing this one).
I should probably quit here but can't do so without agreeing with your overall approach - if you will accept my paraphrasing - that as beautiful as they are, they are cars first - not pieces of sculpture - and intended to be used (however spirited or gently as may be appropriate), not just admired or respected from afar. Supporting both of these goals without penalizing the other should be the real objective behind any rules review.

Kenneth L. Cantor
ex 1987 Series III VDP

Mike,
Further to one of your earlier posts, while there are 6000 members and "only" 19 or so that have become involved with this discussion, I disagree with your conclusion that this is necessarily "sad". Your forums are indeed a wonderful tool to express ideas and comments but are also a wonderful tool to become exposed to ideas and comments and the length of this thread would seem to prove rather than disprove that.
One of the things your conclusion fails to take into account is the passion, enthusiasm and reputation of many of the 19 and their impact on overall postings to any particular thread, not just this one. I am sure many of the "other" 5,981 agree with one side of this issue or the other but feel that the discussions being posted already eloquently put forward their opinion. This does not mean they do not have an opinion or do not care, just that posting it often seems to be redundant (as would posting the same solution to a forum for a mechanical problem for the second, third or fourth time in the same thread).
I also think there is more than a small amount of respect and/or awe behind this particular forum as well - after all, if you have your heart set on something you would be happy to just be able to display without looking foolish, it is difficult to publicly disagree with a 9.990 enthusiast striving to be a 9.995 (sorry about using numbers - I am trying to illustrate a point and not identify or identify with anyone in particular). When you think that an issue is unlikely to ever affect you directly, there is a tendency to let those who will be most affected resolve it (rightly or wrongly).
I wholeheartedly agree that Pascal (and his ten finger crew!) indeed do a wonderful job making this a very user friendly site but a perceived lack of postings in many cases will in fact reflect this rather than indicate otherwise.
In regard to your question as to why such a small percentage of membership attends the national event, I would have to wonder if part of that answer is not already apparent from both sides of this thread. How many attend or would attend events not just to compete but to learn and to be able to admire first hand both those cars that win and those that do not. This would certainly include cars that may have "in-transit" damage - regardless of whether it is judged or not - as long as they are actually there (although this may warrant a new and different thread rather than confusing this one).
I should probably quit here but can't do so without agreeing with your overall approach - if you will accept my paraphrasing - that as beautiful as they are, they are cars first - not pieces of sculpture - and intended to be used (however spirited or gently as may be appropriate), not just admired or respected from afar. Supporting both of these goals without penalizing the other should be the real objective behind any rules review.

Kenneth L. Cantor
ex 1987 Series III VDP

To Bob:

I would probably commit myself right then and there to do a fourth show to drop the turkey score. Someone has already said it up to the entrant what he/she decides. Each person will have their own unique circumstnaces to consider.

Damage encourages more travelling in the end.

P.S.
Congratulations on a 1st in class at British Car day (no en route damage that day).

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada
90 XJ-S

>> don't know about others, (although I'm pretty sure Mike feels the same), but I drive thousands of miles for the fun of attending and meeting nice people. It's great to go to the JCC every couple of years and see people I only see then

For a start Mike has already stated that he trailers his car to shows. > So I fail to see how would he have much idea about transit damage other than to his trailer. I also cannot help but connect these nice people you constantly refer to with the same people you would never trust to be honest when claiming for travel damage.

>>ok... so it costs money to show a car... sure. but I think that if you're going thru the efforts and costs simply for the ego trip of bringing back the big plate, you're doing it all for the wrong reasons!

So if you guys think it is so wrong, why encourage it by giving out big plates in the first place. When you remove the incentive you will remove the motivation.

Okay try this . USA is Playing Canada in the final game of a three game hockey series. Each team has only been allowed to field five players per side. First two games have been played and the score is even. The third and final game comes up and one of the USA team memberÔÇÖs falls while exiting the team bus and brakes his leg. The USA team officials apply for permission to play a substitute and the Canadians object on the grounds that it would advantage the USA team because the substitute player would be fresher than the rest of the players. Therefore would be handing an advantage to the USA team. The USA teamÔÇÖs request is denied and they are forced to play the final game four against five and they lose.

According to what I understand you to be saying is that this would not be any big deal for anybody. If the USA team was expected to be playing only to win the big trophy. They were playing for the wrong reasons. Participation is what counts not the win. Hummm I wonder.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

ok... so it costs money to show a car... sure. but i think that if you're going thru the efforts and costs simply for the ego trip of bringing back the big plate, you're doing it all for the wrong reasons!

i don't know about others, (although I'm pretty sure Mike feels the same), but i drive thousands of miles for the fun of attending and meeting nice people. It's great to go to the JCC every couple of years and see people i only see then.

we're all grown up here and we can deal with the minor disapointment of loosing a few points. We're not kids whose toy broke chrismas morning. and i as i've said, if the damage is significant and more than a couple of points for a stone chips, then you have more to worry about anyway...

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe

>> Dissappoint the people about not showing your car? Give me a break.

Hey hold on now they were not my choice of words they were somebody elseÔÇÖs during this thread. I just repeated them.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Dan if you are only able to get to three shows in the year and one of those you sustain damage on the way and take a sizable hit with the score. First thing is the three scores eliminates you out of the running for a regional award because you have attended three shows and that qualifies you for the North American award. Secondly the one bad score could conceivably also eliminate you out of the running for the North American championship standing as well. Allowing lessor prepared cars to take your place in both.

To Pascel I say that you have to be a little anal about your car if you are prepared to spend the amount of money it takes each year to attend more than just your local concours, that's always the cheap one to attend. The gas it takes to get to the others, two nights stay in a hotel with meals on top of that plus the entry fees and awards dinners. In my case I am just a working stiff and this all comes out to an average of about $650 Canadian per concours. Five concours per year $3,250 Canadian after tax dollars just to show a car.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Bob,
I have to disagree with you again. Pascal has driven the best sounding V12 E-Type I have ever heard from Florida to Arizona and Fom Florida to New England. I am sure that he has encountered all types of road conditions. And besides, if you are a true driver, you find ways to avoid those unfortunate obstacles in the road. And I can honestly say that Pascal was not driving along at a liesurely pace when he was on these trips!
If you experience damage to your car on the way to an event, It is an unfortunate circumstance and is not the falt of the club that is presenting the event. It is your choice to show or not to show.
Dissappoint the people about not showing your car? Give me a break. When Peaches broke down at 10 pm on Friday before the CC, I obviosly had no time to get her mechanically ready for the Concours on Sat. Though I was offered to have her "pushed" onto the field, I refused. If She couldn't make it on the field under her own power, than I woudn't show her. If I disappointed anyone for not showing her, I am sorry, but the rules state that the cars have to be Driven on the field. How the hell do you think I felt about this? So now I am opening another can of worms here. What if a car experiences mechanical damage in transit to a concours? The rules state that the cars have to be driven on the field. It seems that cosmetics rule. That really sucks! 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

"crack team"... LOL!!!! thnks Mike, I'll pass this on... to the "team".. all 10 of them.. (my 10 fingers) :-)

seriously... bob, you said it... some participants are highly anal about their cars and a tad obsessed. can we really think that all in transit damage claims will be justified? and not something that happened Xdays before?

it sounds good and generous on paper, but impossible to put in a rule...

at least, with no in transit damage allowance, all competitors have the same chances; no questions or doubts to be raised.

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe

To Bob:

Like the man says: make the AGM proposal - I support it.

Also, if you attend more than 3 shows, aren't the law scores dropped for standings?

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
Red 90 XJ-S

Mike I respect your opinion and all others that have expressed theirs. However at the same time it is difficult to understand how somebody can form an express an educated opinion without having experienced the problems first hand. Its also great for somebody as fortunate as Pascel to say they have driven umpteen miles without damage but he like many of the others participating here, live in area's that are not effected by drastic changes in climate that cause the roads to heave and break up. I recently drove my new car back from BC. 4,888 klms all along the Trans Canada highway. This road for the most part has just been rebuilt and I managed it without getting a single stone chip on the car. Try that again in two years after the road has suffered through two winters and the paintwork on your car would be a mess by the time you get back.

I pride myself on the condition I keep my cars in and I only take and show my cars when I know they are as good as I will ever get them. Stew Cleave's knows this first hand because he was ribbing me in Victoria BC this year because I was not in his words "showing a certain 99.85 car in their concours". I simply considered it not yet to be in the condition where I was prepared to put it up for judging.

After returning home from BC I spent the next four to five weeks fixing and preparing everything on the car for the Michigan concours. I got it as near to perfect as I could and ready to be shown. I should also mention I am a perfectionists and very anal about my car. On the way, through no fault of my own it gets damaged. I am then being told that I should not receive any concession to be made in the scoring for the damage that I sustained on the way to the show.

However it is now suggested that I should remain a good sport about it and have my car judged anyway. Take the deductions for the damage because otherwise I might disappoint the people if I skip the concours and just take the car back home. I assume the people we are talking about that would assumable be disappointed would be those that have stuck hard an fast to their opinion of not allowing any concessions in the scoring for transit damage. That sure is an interesting point of view.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Bob,
The sad thing about this is that there are 6000 members and we have only 19 or so that have becomed involved with this discussion. Our forums are a wonderful tool to express our ideas and comments, but unfortunately, there are only a few of us that have enough enthusiasm to get involved. I preach at our club meetings for our members to check out the forums. Pascal, and his crack team, have spent a lot of time and effort to make this a very user friendly site. I just don't understand why more people don't utilize it. I also don't understand why such a small percentage of our membership attends our national event.
Getting back to the subject at hand, I do not agree with allowing a participant to not be deducted for in transit damage. If you read the rules it is clearly stated that the cars are to be judged to a standard. If you feel strongly enough about this subject, I would suggest that you submit a proposal to the next AGM using Dick's guidelines. I plan on proposing a DRIVING mechanical test for all participants in the near future. Cars have to preform like cars first. The pretty stuff is secondary. You better check your gauges and make sure they are working! 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

I thought you all might find this interesting. Checking the current North American and Regional standings on the JCNA website. I found that of the nineteen responders to this thread only Nine of them have traveled to more than one show and of that nine four are in favour of some kind of travel damage allowance being made and four against with one undeclared. That makes the vast amount of objections coming from people that show at one or less shows. Unless of course I have unfortunately missed somebody out.

Now what I donÔÇÖt know is how many of the nineteen responders drive or trailer their cars to shows.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
MkII 3.4 Automatic.

Sept 28th 2005

My choice would probably be to go with the class-D08A that I always enter no matter what and that includes damage (a.k.a. enroute damage) as a low score does not seem to matter much after three shows. I guess I have a "... show must go on" point of view.

For now, I am sticking with driver class which means the drive is mandatory and fine by me. Many posts laud the cars in motion and I agree wholeheartedly i.e.Peaches likes to be driven too.

Is anyone actually opposed to having greater certainty on this issue
one way OR the other in the future?

The JNCA Rules talk about evolution by "... conscentious trial and error."

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada
It's really my wife's Red 90 XJ-S

Dan wrote: "What do you think about withdrawing your car because from showing if you have damage en route?

A "negligence of the judge" exemption could not kick in until the judging starts so I guess a collision/accident even on way the judging area is still at one's own risk.

FYI: none of these hardship scenarios discussed (a car fire in tunnel - yikes!) has actually happened to me (thankfully) just good times cruising around without a care"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Fortunately I have never experienced en route damage either.

I think the decision to withdraw is entirely the responsibility of the entrant. If it happened to me and I was concerned about points I would opt to show in display class or whatever the local concours organizers call their particular non-judged displays. I don't know why this would require any kind of rule change though.

By "negilgence of the judge" (probably a bad choice of words on my part) I was referring to possible damage resulting from the placement of the cars on the field. Say a worker accidently directs you to back into a post or tree, or a tree limb falls and strikes your car. Damage like that should be waived. On the other hand an entrant backing a car out of their trailer should be responsible for their own damage since that is not the fault of anyone but the vehicle's owner.

A few years ago at a concours I, along with everyone else was cleaning my E-type prior to judging, doors, hatch and bonnet open. Suddenly the hotel's lawn sprinkler system came on, they were on a timer. I was parked immediately adjacent to a sprinkler head and it was spraying directly on and in my car. Everybody associated with the concours, and many other entrants immediately dropped everything to secure the sprinkler heads and help me clean up the mess. The judges choose not to penalize me for water spots or any other deduction likely caused by the water. I thought their decision was fair. In fact, I thought the whole incident was amusing since there was no real damage to the vehicle. It made winning the plate a little more interesting.

That's the kind of damage I think should be allowed for. Anything that happens prior to placement on the field should the the owner's responsibility with no waiver of damage.

Regards, John

Pat and Jim,
Thank you guys so much for your nice comments. Pat, you have a beautiful car and you should be very proud. The navy blue top really sets it off. What can i say, I am a sucker for blue. And you drive it! That is what she was built for.
Jim, I wish you well with your rebuild and I commend you for your spirit. With new cars today, and planned obsolescence, who would even think of a car lasting fifteen years. As far as your suggestion for a big trophy, I got my big trophy just being a participant and having a good time with Peaches, and of course seeing and talking to folks that I haven't seen for awhile I am not at all upset or disappointed about her breaking down(or as we say in the Carolinas, blowed-up). I can't wait to get her out of the shop and on the road again. The hell with all the cleaning and polishing. If you can't drive these cars you are missing the enjoyment.
Mike 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

P.S.
Is there a way to check grammer or spelling on this forum before posting?
The first sentence in my last post sounds demented.

P.P.S.
I don't know how other auto-clubs handle.
Maybe AMOC or a Rolls Royce Club is a good place to check.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada
90 XJ-S

Dear John:

What do you think about withdrawing your car because from showing if you have damage en route?

A "negligence of the judge" exemption could not kick in until the judging starts so I guess a collision/accident even on way the judging area is still at one's own risk.

FYI: none of these hardship scenarios discussed (a car fire in tunnel - yikes!) has actually happened to me (thankfully) just good times cruising around without a care.

Regards,
Dan Lokun,
Toronto, Canada
90 XJ-S

Forgot to ask: Does anybody have any idea how other clubs, say the Corvbette guys, address this?

Regards, John

Sorry if this has alrady been said. I have spent the last week dodging Rita (mandatory evacuation) so I haven't followed every post on this topic.

Personally I think allowing for in transit damage is a bad idea. Entrants should "run what they brung", no exceptions. The only damage that should be ignored by the judges is damage caused by negligence of the concurs personnel prior to the event. To do otherwise opens the door to abuse and may compromise what some see as an already highly subjective judging system.

Let's say an entrant shows up at a concours with a large rock chip on the noew of their E-type and the rules allow that damage to be passed over as in transit damage. Does that entrant then get a second free pass if they show up at a concours the next week with the same damage? Except for entrant honesty no one knows how or when the damage actually occured.

Using a police report to validate the claim won't work. How many of us have windscreen rock chips on our daily drivers and how many of us got a police report for the damage. I would guess none.

Sorry to offer a hard line on this but I don't see how any other way of dealing with in transit damage would be as fair as no allowances. And, being one who drives to all concours I participate in I know this places me at a possible disadvantage, but I think it is the only fair way to do it.

Regards, John

After all the comments (and more to come I am sure), the status quo isn't going to cut it in my opinion.

There should be an official Rule change that makes it clear:

1. no exceptions for damage enroute or on the field.

OR

2. a change along the lines suggested by the Rules Chair.

Making a rule change (either way) is not going to interfere with anyone's fun factor.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada
90 XJ-S

Let's not overdo the "risks of driving long distance"...please... I put an average of 10k a year on my e-type driving to shows, track days, etc... and all i accumulated in the past 5 years are 3 little stone chips. that's it. THREE stone chips.

these cars are meant to be driven.

Mike, it was GREAT to sea Peaches rip around the slalom course, on the rally and all... sorry you broke your axle but you had more fun than most participants.

this is an intersting thread... for years, I also believed that there was a rule somewhere stating that damage in transit could be overlooked during judging... This is something i heard many times from many experienced judges. it's obviously nowhere in the rule book.

it's whole can of worm that's best left alone, this is supposed to be fun... frankly if you suffer significant damage (cracked windshield, significant bodywork, etc...) on the way, well... you have more to worry about than a trophy!

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe

Steve. Obviously if Dick found anything I wrote offensive I offer an opology to him, but I assure you no offence was intended. I just found his post to contain so many twists and turns it just stirred up fond memories of this gentleman I spoke of.

So that brings up a question which is. Why does it have to be so complicated. The way it has been handled (unofficially) right now apparently has been for the entrant to approach the chief judge and explains the damage. The chief judge then has used his powers of observation and common sense to either grant or ignore the request.

So using the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle why cannot this be transferred to a written request so that JCNA gets a copy of it on file. The entrant fills out a request for consideration form explaining the incident and detailing the damage he claims. The chief judge either approves it or rejects it. I am not suggesting this should cover minor items like the inevitable stone chips and suchlike. I am talking real substantial damage like what I endured, a broken headlight and windshield.

Supposedly all our Chief Judges can judge and already have the authority to make the final judging decisions. Just extend their authority to include this. I donÔÇÖt for one minute believe that damage caused while unloading a trailer queen should be covered anytime. That is damage that can be avoided and is totally in the hands of the driver. Travel damage endured on the highway, in the hotel parking lot and on the show field is a totally different situation where the driver/owner normally has no control. It was just an accident.

Its enough of a handicap already to have to take the risk of driving long distances (average of 6 hours driving one way for me around the lake) to get to these shows. We have to go up against entrants that are local and have kept their cars in garages over night and those that have tailored their cars to the show. Why make it any more difficult for us to attend and be competitve when we get there.

I spend hundreds of hours preparing my car for concours and I will no longer show it if it gets damaged in transit. I am also fully prepared to forgo my score that I received at Michigan if that has caused anybody a problem.

Bob.

92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
MkII 3.4 Automatic

I have been watching all this traffic. I think everyone is getting away from the point. The judge should judge the car by the current JCNA rule book. If damages have occurred, then the entrant qualifies for the local club Hard Luck trophy. We have had years where there was lots of compeititon for this much sought after trophy, broken windshields, trailer damage, etc. Only to be won by the entrant whose MK 2 burned up inside the Eisenhower tunnel.
Steve Kennedy
Denver

Well Bob Higgs.....
I guess it's not about the quality of the members, but the colour of your money!

Amen Pat!

I'm currently restoring the 140 that we've owned and enjoyed for 15 years. I will do the absolute best restoration that I am capable of doing, and then we will drive the car for another 15 years. I love going to car shows and I'm glad that there are survivor cars to study and show cars that remind us what is "correct," but the JCNA is so much more than just a car show for most of the members.

I doubt that there are but a handful of members that would care less about extending scoring grace to a 100 point car that was damaged while being unloaded from the trailer. I suspect there are many more who would join me in recommending that a special (and really big) trophy be created for anyone who breaks the axle on a 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon named Peaches while driving the wheels off it at a national event. Now that was the best story of this whole thread!

Jim Reminga
1957 XK-140 OTS

I need to respond to Mike Fulton's comments and say that he is "dead-on." I too was at the CC and watched him take his Champion Division 38 through a 90 plus mile road rally, rip around the slalom course at such speed everyone stopped what they were doing to watch and then drive the car to our evening events. I was heart-broken when he lost the rear end on his car and could not make the Concours. JCNA is more than just a car show folks. It's people sharing a common passion - Jaguars. If your thing is only to show the car and fill the house with trophies then I say, have your car professionally restored, put it in a trailer, never drive it and hire a couple of thugs out of Chicago to protect it when it's out of the trailer. If your thing is to enjoy the car and be with others that want to do the same thing then follow Mike's example. I have a pretty nice 150 (in my opinion) and I've taken a number of first places with it but, at the CC, it didn't stand a chance against the professionally restored entrants whose cars have never been in third gear! Was I upset -- definitely not. I was out there on the field with some of the best looking Jaguars in the world and you don't get to do that very often. Leave the rules the way they are. If the judges tent collapses and falls on a car then let the Chief Judge decide what to do.

Pat Harmon
CJ NGJC

When someone gets to the point of writing a proposed rule change please follow Dick's guide but add the one thing that would get my support---a accident report (read police). This might be a way of stopping the one problem (abuse) I would be concerned with. For those of you who do not understand how this affects the other entrants in the class for the year I can only say that although the effort has been made to explain the system you just do not understand the current JCNA awards scheme. Mr. Isaac's sserve to illustrate how difficult it is to write guides and rules in anticipation of ALL KINDS or entrants and interpretations of same. George Camp

That our Jags may get damaged on the road is just one of the chances we take.....whether it's to the corner store or to a Concours 500 miles away.

I personally wouldn't expect any leniency be given if my car were damaged en route. The trade-off, of course, is that the events leading up to the damage always get better with age. After a couple years of embellishment they make great tales to be told at the hotel pub with all your concours friends gathered round :-).

As for Mr. Isaacs' remarks, well, I can only say "What the *&^%$ just happened?". I presume he will be renouncing his JCNA membership immediately.

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Bob,
Regarding your post of 23:00:42
The process is easy, but writing a rule that would be acceptable would be difficult, as evidenced by the deversity of opinions expressed in this thread (that incidently must be setting the record on this forum for number of posts).

I think you owe Dick an opology; he was only setting up the criteria that such a rule would have to meet, based on the deverse opinions expressed to date.

I think the issue should be referred to JCRC for a possible rule change, not that we don't have anything else to do this year.

This year I directed my judges to ignore obvious fresh collision damage to a car whose entrant wanted to drop out. The Entrant was only showing at our show and had no intention of showing at other shows and becoming eligilbe for North American Championship.

I thought it was the gentlemanly thing to do.
Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
'01 S-Type
and other LBC's

Bob,
Well, if you don't understand my remarks, which I think were perfectly clear, than I can only say that you are in this for the wrong reasons. If you commit to an event, you should make every effort to attend. Yes, there are unfortunate circumstances where a car may be damaged in route, but if the damge is minamal and,God forbid if no one is injured, you should make the effort to continue on. You have a car that is very rare and I am sure that people get excited when they know you are coming. Be a sport. Continue on and have a good time and enjoy the time with fellow Jaguar owners. Don't worry about another plaque or trophy. Just enjoy the company.
Isn't that what it's all about? 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Re Richards Posting.....

Okay so own up. Who was last in here and left the door open.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
MkII 3.4 Automatic.

>> Bob Higgs, I admire you for driving your car, but lighten up and have some fun. If you take this stuff to seriously it spoils all the fun

Sorry Mike but I did not understand your reasoning for adding this remark. I am cool with what ever is decided. I have already said that in future, I get damaged in transit, I immediately go home. As far as having fun, you have to appreciate that at $500 to $600 a concours it can get to be expensive fun so just a little seriousness has to be slipped in there someplace.

I cannot help but mention that Dick CavickeÔÇÖs post put a smile on my face. It reminded me so much of a person I once worked with a long time ago. This gentleman was a master at manipulating other people. I shared an office with him for about two years and when asked to introduce a new process into the plant, something he really did like doing. He always managed to make the implementation of that process sound so complicated and disruptive to production, most of the people doing the asking would throw their arms up in the air and just give up and walk away. Afterwards when it was all over and the dust had settled, he would turn and wink at me.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP

Rules, Rules, Rules!!!
I have been avidly reading your continuous dribble regarding rules.
I have a Jaguar, 1986 XJ6 to be exact, and am a card carrying member of the JCNA to boot.
There are so many important issues that face us now and in the future, energy...or the lack of...the environment...or loss of....the war Iraq...etc., and all you rich fellows whine about petty points and bending rules.
Well Gents, I'm ashamed to be associated with people who are so insulated that they don't know what really going on.
Money sure doesn't buy class.

Richard Isaacs

1986 Jaguar Series III
1985 Porsche 944
1991 BMW 325 is

Whoa Dick! So If I roll my car over four or five times and bring her to the show and claim that I sustained damage enroute and I want an exception? You best stay away from this!
Mike 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

I have been reading all this nonsense with great intrest. It is unfortunate that someone sustains damage to thier car in route to an event, but the old saying goes, "you run what you brung" or in this case, "you show what you brung". This past weekend at the CC in Georgia, I decided to participate in all of the events associatted with the CC. On Thursday I ran the slalom and on Friday my wife and I participated in the ralley, and I am proud to say that as navigator, she gave excellent directions and we didn't miss a turn. Our relationship is stronger than ever! I really pushed the car over that two day period and she ran beautifully. We drove her to the cocktail party on Friday night, just across the street from the hotel and when we returned to the hotel parking lot, she wouldn't go anymore. With the help of some of my Buds, it was determined that the rear-end was gone. We pushed her onto the trailer and I lashed her down for the rest of the weekend. I was asked if I would like help pushing her onto the show field the next morning and I refused. I had an incredible two days driveng her and I was happy that she hung in there with me. She could have broken down miles from our home base, but no. Old Peaches did me proud and got me back to the hotel before she just couldn't take anymore. I learned today that she had a broken axle. I really did abuse her over the two day period. I had of course entered her in the concours, but I told the guys that offered to push her on that I would not show her if she could not make it onto the field on her own. If you look in the rule book, it states that the cars must be driven on the field. I feel very strongly about the mechanics of the cars and will probably submit a REALLY TRUE mechanical test for our rules committee to consider. They are cars first. I don't care how pretty they are, but I think we are loosing the point here. They have to FUNCTION as cars.
I totally disagree with all this nonsense about making exceptions for a car that is damaged enroute to a show. This is a grey area and leaves to much room for abuse. Unfortunately, stuff happens. If I were in route to a show and something unfortunate occurred, I would still continue on to the show to atleast enjoy the comoradoree with my car friends. Hey, it's not just about the cars! And some of these unfortunate circumstances are what makes for great stories and keeps our hobby fun. Bob Higgs, I admire you for driving your car, but lighten up and have some fun. If you take this stuff to seriously it spoils all the fun.
Mike Fulton 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

If anyone wants to change the existing JCNA Rules to accommodate enroute damage, or anything else, the procedure is to submit a formal and complete request to JCRC. Some suggestions sound reasonable and simple until one tries to make them into a fair, comprehensive and all-encompassing rule.

To cover many of the Forum issues, it is recommended that any proposed change relating to "enroute damage" include:

1. A form and a process which enables every Entrant to apply for an enroute damage exception, no matter how far they have traveled. (This could include damage which might even occur when taking a car out of its trailer.)

2. A procedure for the event's Chief Judge to use in determining:
a. Which applications/occurrences will be considered valid.
b. When such applications should be screened and who should verify the circumstances.
c. What criteria qualify certain damage to be overlooked and other damage to be penalized.
d. What limits must be observed? Does every trace of damage qualify and/or how much damage is too much.
e. Whether enroute damage is allowed in all divisions; Preservation class?
f. Whether an Entry's scores, which have repeatedly been adjusted for enroute damage, should be allowed to count toward a JCNA Regional or Championship standing?

3. The rationale (for the edification of rest of the competition) which might allow a car to still receive a very high score, up to 100 points, despite substantial damage at the time of judging.

4. The suggested method of distinguishing between new and old damage and what to do if the enroute damage is on top of some items that were already in poor condition.

5. The method by which a score will be annotated so that, if the car is shown at a later concours, the same damage will not be allowed a second time.

6. Is enroute damage allowance a "silver bullet" or can it be granted at every concours the car ever enters?

Good luck.

Dick Cavicke
Chair, JCRC

We had an incident recently at a sanctioned concours where damage was caused to two cars on the concours field as cars were being placed on a very croweded and tight field. As a judge in one of the classes concerned I was instructed by the chief judge to ignore the damage to the vehicle as having been caused at the show, certainly no fault of the concours participant, in fact , it was probably one of our club officers overwhelmed trying to cram way too many cars into too small a space.

I just dont have time to re read the rule book tonight but I will soon to see if that clause is in there.

I think that unsubstantiated claims that damage took place on the way to a show , while I sympathize, should be disallowed because it is far too easy to abuse this courtesy, and these types of exceptions should be disallowed.

Damage caused on the concours field should be given an exemption. Only on the field, not in the parking lot outside unloading a car from a trailer, not on the highway en route, not in your driveway at home 4 minutes before you depart for the show. Sorry, its just too gray an area to allow these kinds of random courtesies. The playing field is level for all attendees, we all have the same risk of damage driving to a show and the law of averages says we will all experience this at one point or another if you compete long enough. I am willing to accept that.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

Dear Ken:

Sounds good to me too as a JNCA Rule amendment.

The request should be by a standardized form.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

Kenneth. What you have suggested was obviously well thought out and sounds fine with me. I also cannot see what legitimate objections anybody could hold against such an idea.

Bob.

92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6.VDP
MkII 3.4 Automatic

Bob,

You and many others here obviously have more experience - good and bad from the sounds of it - in regard to consistency of judging. I think what I was proposing would introduce greater consistency of what would be judged - i.e. in-transit damage would be one-time exempted if documented by the entrant (and not left to a judge's discretion - within the rules or not). I would assume that the review/appeal process as it currently stands would minimize any potential for abuse in this area. Even though it may just be semantics, while I agree that consistent application of any rule doesn't automatically translate to consistent judging, by the same token introducing a more appropriate (realistic?/fairer?) rule certainly wouldn't hurt in resolving the real issue behind this thread.

Kenneth L. Cantor
ex 1987 Series III VDP

By the way, alot of posts are using sports analogies.

What about the German biker who let Lance Armstrong catch up after he hit a pedestrian in the Tour De France - that guy's a hero in Europe for his good sportmanship and comeraderie(spelling?)

How does one do a spell check?

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

Come on guys don't letÔÇÖs get confused by bringing in the subject of consistency of judging. When my car can be shown at four D06 events this year and receive scores wavering between 9.875 and 9.997 that is a good indication that consistency in judging has not yet been achieved to an acceptable level. However I know you guys at the top are working hard at achieving it in the not too distant future.

What we are discussing here is whether or not to allow unfortunate victims of transit damage the benefit of a judging allowance. I guess in a way it does touch on the consistency of the condition of a car.

For example... If a car has been shown at a couple of shows and consistently received scores at or around the 99.90 level and then because of an unfortunate mishap on the way to a concours is penalized for the damage and drops to lets say 98.0. Surely that would in fact be like giving all the other entrants in that class a rewarded for the misfortune of this one competitor.

My personal choice as I have already stated. Is to ovoid getting the low score by taking the car straight home and skip that concours entirely. This would in effect protect my average score for the year. I can always find another concours to attend but I cannot erase a low score.

To explain better and using the example I have given. Over a three concours average score a low score like that would drop your average from 99.90 to a 99.08 which could drop the car right out of the running for either a Championship or regional title. A huge punishment for somebody involved in an unfortunate accident. Does it also indicate the car did not deserve the higher average. No not at all, it just indicates the car was damaged for one show but has now been penalizes for the full year for getting damaged on the way to that one show.

I also donÔÇÖt see all the claims of if we allow this to continue ÔÇ£it effects all other participantsÔÇØ in a negative way. I have to ask ÔÇ£howÔÇØ can it possibly do that other than to ovoid handing them a reward for somebody else misfortune..

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Dear Ken:

Whichever position on the "enroute damage" issue taken in a post by Judge above, it is clear that no Judge, so far, has endorsed an actual, official amendment of the JCNA Rules.

I like your suggested solution as starting point for discussion, but it would clearly require a rewrite of the Rules rather than being an application or interpretation of the Rules.

I think real issue is when does "judging" start?

The issue may not about strict or liberal interpretations of the deduction rules but an ambiguity about when presentation of the car ("existing state" to be judged)actually starts under the rules.

A universally agreed time-frames are also a factor in consistantcy of score results.

That's why I asked: was there ever damage during a concours (as opposed to en route) and how was it handled?

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada
90 XJ-S

Dan,

Unless I am reading the postings incorrectly, the JCNA Judges seem to be commenting on practices for or against judging in-transit damage "based on the existing rules".

A strict reading/interpretation of those rules certainly supports the position that in-transit damage should - or at least would - be judged. However, it is also apparent that this interpretation is not always strictly or rigidly adhered to. It would also seem that inconsistency is as much a concern as fairness in this regard. In addition, the judges' comments (and not unanimously) don't seem to be - and perhaps shouldn't be - intended to reflect what many would consider to be fair but were instead intended to clarify the correct interpretation of the existing rules from their perspective.

Furthermore, both sides acknowledge the requirement for consistency in judging (or not judging) as paramount. What I was suggesting was a change that would provide that consistency and eliminate any need for discretion on the part of judges by allowing for in-transit damage to be identified and addressed fairly "within the (proposed/amended) rules" by the entrant on a one-time basis rather than on an ad hoc basis between the entrant and the judges at any particular event.

Kenneth L. Cantor
ex 1987 Series III VDP

I think Ken has a point about finding middle ground as there are already stated reasons for both points of view on the issue. However, I see that JNCA Judges who posted were against a rule change.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

As a long-time "lurker", I have found this to one of the more interesting threads to follow. Both positions in the discussion seem to well-founded and well-intentioned. It would therefor seem to me appropriate to try and accommodate both rather than see either one prevail.

In concours judging, I note that an entrant is allowed 15 minutes to "fix" a non-working horn or light. This would seem to imply some flexibility to that point in time where an entrant is actually judged. On this issue, perhaps the solution is to remove it from the judges' discretion - which seems to be a large part of the issue - and formally allow an entrant to request and document a one-time exemption for specific "in-transit" damage. This would not be dissimilar to the requirement for an entrant to document authenticity. It would also presumably then be filed with JCNA along with the overall results to remove the potential for that damage to receive the same exemption at a following meet.

Although this would minimize the good luck for entrants who have avoided any "in-transit" damage, it would maintain their having competed on the same basis over the course of a year. It would also presumably encourage more people to take on those risks associated with travelling to events that are further afield by minimizing the advantages of being close or of "trailering".

Thanks to all of you for the knowledge and information you have provided to others through this forum - even if unknowingly. Hopefully this will be received as a contribution in kind.

Kenneth L. Cantor
ex 1987 Series III VDP

Edited on 2005-09-26 3:08:44

Well Bob, I for one greatly appreciate your thoughts and input on the discussion here. I don't think anyone here thinks you have your head in the clouds, you have an opinion and we all respect your opinion. That's what I think these forums are extremely valuable for, people with different ideas to be able to "kick around" those ideas which may lead to changes in the way we "do business" so to speak so that the organization continues to grow and achieve its goals.

Again, I thank you for your contributions to this discussion even though we disagree, I believe that we all strive to do do what's best in our minds for JCNA. Thanks again!

Bill Jenkins
Jaguar Club of Southern New England

I guess after reading some of these replies I also have also taken a position and that is that I have obviously had my head in the clouds. I always thought that the main aim of concours events was for like-minded people to come together to show their cars and share their enthusiasm for preserving the Jaguar marque.

Not for one minute did it ever occur to me that this was apparently so far from the truth. That instead we are a group of very competitive and cutthroat people. That for one reason or another want to win so badly that we are willing to throw away all the essence of camaraderie and at the drop of a hat grab at any opportunity presented to us to take advantage of another enthusiasts misfortune.

I hope I never get to be like that. The day I do I will quit showing my cars all together.

Heck there again maybe it is me that is the fool for being like so many others that I know that hand out free advice to our competitors, supply them with hard to find items, show them by example how to repair and restore items and even offer to restore the items for them. I guess we should instead be standing back and snickering amongst ourselves about how much nicer our cars are than theirs.

Hey competition is competition, dog eat dog and all that rubbish. disillusionment is such a downer.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
MkII 3.4 Automatic.

I've been reading this for several days, at times leaning towards the "make allowances" side and at other times favoring the "as it is" side. With consideration, I have to say that making allowances for en route damage has far too much potential to open the proverbial can of worms. My observation of the unfortunates who experienced en route damage this season is that they were philosophical about their bad luck, and not insistent that they be given special consideration. From that, I have to assume that they still enjoyed themselves in spite of their misfortune. On the other hand, I believe that the potential for the other choice, that of giving consideration for en route damage, to create bad feelings among the competitors and ultimately reduce enjoyment for some of them is great.

Let's stick with the way the rules are, and in fact I believe that the rules should be amended to specifically and categorically exclude these types of allowances.

As for myself, I competed this season in C-12, scoring well in five events, but always conscious while driving en route that something might happen. I did have good luck in that my only problem occurred on the way home, and I was able to affect a remedy in time for the next event. Luck is a factor in just about any kind of competition I can think of. That's why we wish people "Good Luck".

Doug Ingram
Victoria BC Canada
1987 Series III XJ6 VDP