Regionals and Nationals

Based on some side-bars I have had, I have come to the conclusion that it is not worth trying to try to add a rule for transit damage as it not likely to pass JCNA's process and more likely end up being a futile expenditure of the time.

RIP transit damage.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

Oct 7 2005

I think everyone is now finished with this issue or is taking a break.

I intend to attempt to make this an item for a rule change at the AGM making a transit damage rule - although I haven't a clue how to go about actually doing any part of it. I think that is necessary after 100 posts. If the AGM will not accept such a rule change, I expect that someone else can make another rule comment that transit damage exemptions are explicitly NOT allowed.

That way this whole thing is put to rest in the future.

I am still curious (really, really curious!)what Mr. Fulton can relate regarding other clubs when he gets a chance.

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

Mike:

Your right about the analysis of the rules as they stand.

I think an amendment has to be forthcoming which is explicit about this issue either way.

However, you also have information pending that might CHANGE the rules (remember your "Serious Friend"?).

It is worth coming to a conclusion that is an informed one. When I started this thread, I really was clued out.

Are "States rights" the same as "Club Autonomy"?

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

Jim's comments about driving warm my heart.

Regards

Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

Ginger,
The more I read and the more I ponder all the comments on this thread, it is a no brainer that in transit damage is an unfortunate experience, but the cars have to to judged as presented. If everyone reads George Camps posts, he is on the money. There is no provision in the rule book for this situation. I stated earlier that I had learned that some other marques overlook these situations and that I will attempt to get my hands on a copy of their rule books in order to see how they do things. And it would be healthy for us to compare what they do verses what we do. I am sure some of their ideas warrant our consideration. Though keep in mind, we don't have to do things the same as everyone else. But back to the issue at hand. My opinion at this point is that the cars should be judged as presented. Period. Would I be upset if my Peaches got mangled while being unloaded from the trailer or some idiot nailed her while driving to a show? Of course I would. Would I ask the head judge to ignore her damage? No way! You should know how strongly I feel about this after not taking up the offer to have her pushed on the field at the CC, the major event of the year.
Ginger, I don't know what the problem is with the deletions. I have never tried to delete a post, though there were times when I probably should have. But you know me, I get a little wound up at times and I may say some things that I may regret later. But If I felt strongly enough to post it on this forum you can be assured that what I say is from the bottom of my heart, or gut, and maybe sometimes from my brain! I guess those that delete their posts just don't have the intestinal fortitude to back up their comments, for whatever reason.
Mike 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Dan,
Indiana, the one I moved from. It was a great place to grow up. I live in South Carolina now and I hope that someday we will attempt to succeed from the union again. I am a huge supporter of states rights, which by the way was the whole argument for succeeding back in the 1860's, not slavery. All you Yankees got it wrong. I know, because I used to be one!
Mike 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Ginger: I recall over 100 posts too. I heard your cars are very nice.

Mike: Are you talking about the state you're in or the one you moved to? (I don't much about either state politically speaking).

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

Now we're down to 94 posts on this thread...looks like a lot of folks are deleting....what gives? Wasn't there over 100 yesterday? Oh, well. It's easier to delete here than to unmail a letter, I suppose. :-)

Bob,
My lightning quick mind convinced me to move to South Carolina, from Indiana, the most politically screwed up state in our nation. You have definitely hit a nerve here. Mike 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

>>>

George. Get off your soap box... I donÔÇÖt know where you have been all this time but we are discussing the pros and cons of changing the rules not breaking them. It would also be nice if you would hold back from being so damn insulting. But maybe you can't help yourself you do it so often.

I am not blessed like you southern people with your lighting quick minds. I am just a dumb little fellow from up north that likes playing in the snow. So if I donÔÇÖt understand so good the way the points system works maybe, well maybe its because you smart people have spent to much time throwing insults and not enough time explaining things to us slower folks.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

This concours stuff is all new to me. I have joined the forum simply because I am restoring an XK-140 OTS and I am committed to rebuilding the car as accurately as I am able. I have found the intensity of this thread to be facinating from both points of view. Very emotional indeed.

Personally my car will be a driver. In fact in the summer I plan to use it as a daily driver. I will drive to JCNA events and will show the car proudly, but my restoration is less about points than it is about driving dependability for the next 15 years.

From my perspective as a driver, I think any car that is damaged while being driven to a concours should receive bonus points - sort of a purple heart for combat injuries. There should be additional points given for distance driven to the event. The farther the car is driven the more bonus points it would receive. Finally, I suggest that there be another bonus points category for speeding tickets received on the way to an event. These cars were meant to be driven hard and owners that do so should be rewarded.

I'm kidding !!! This thread has been too serious for too long.

I do appreciate the relative civility of the conversation and look forward to meeting some or all of you one day.

Jim Reminga

This concours stuff is all new to me. I have joined the forum simply because I am restoring an XK-140 OTS and I am committed to rebuilding the car as accurately as I am able. I have found the intensity of this thread to be facinating from both points of view. Very emotional indeed.

Personally my car will be a driver. In fact in the summer I plan to use it as a daily driver. I will drive to JCNA events and will show the car proudly, but my restoration is less about points than it is about driving dependability for the next 15 years.

From my perspective as a driver, I think any car that is damaged while being driven to a concours should receive bonus points - sort of a purple heart for combat injuries. There should be additional points given for distance driven to the event. The farther the car is driven the more bonus points it would receive. Finally, I suggest that there be another bonus points category for speeding tickets received on the way to an event. These cars were meant to be driven hard and owners that do so should be rewarded.

I'm kidding !!! This thread has been too serious for too long.

I do appreciate the relative civility of the conversation and look forward to meeting some or all of you one day.

Jim Reminga

Hey, what happened to that post outing all the greusome details to everyone by Mike K? I guess he deleted it. Without his, mine doesn't make any sense. Maybe I should delete mine, too!

Ginger Corda
1971 E-Type 2+2
1966 E-Type OTS

What is the process - do you have to attend the AGM?

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S

He may deserve to be knighted but you just will not get it that that an allowance is not determined on that basis and is against the rules. That is when the rules are tested---when the situation is tough. It is Never "mean spirited" to follow the rules that you have given your word you will. That used to be a virture and for me it still is. You want to complain about others application of the rules when it suits you. When you do not agree then others are wrong or the rules are. Further Bob while you claim to understand the JCNA standings system it is clear you still do not. I hope someone else can explain it to you. In this case if grace is allowed then everyone else in this class for the year has a beef. Ginger who is attempting to add some class to the situation has as much right to have a problem with this but no more than everyone else.

As far as where the damage was done--unless one of the JCNA officials or judges acting in their official capacity caused it it just does not matter. We can still regret it and help in any we can except cutting slack. Remember it is the car standing to be judged not the entrant, the situation, his politics, race, creed, etc. It is the car as it is presented at show. Once again Bob I look forward to your presentation of this rule change and any others you might have at the AGM. By the way your super show idea earlier has been presented before and the vote was not close---defeated. George Camp

>>>

George. Assuming that damage was done in the parking lot at the concours as has been suggested. If you can look at that picture and are still able to maintain that that gentleman does need or deserve some sort of enroute allowance, that is "really mean spirited" not my words. This picture thanks to Ginger is the ultimate example of what we are discussing here and has just given you all the opportunity to face up to exactly what you are all standing stead fast against.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic

I have a suggesting for you all to ponder on. It has been suggested before but I will expound on what has already been discussed.

Keep the Regional Championship the way it is but remove the two-show limit. The entrant would retain the best two scores discarding the rest and these two scores would average out to declare the Regional Champion each year.

The present North American championship system would be scraped and replaced with a new system that requires a car to qualify by participating in a minimum of three or more concours with no restrictions as to where they show. Again the three best scores would be taken to calculate an average which would then be taken and matched against a minimum requirement standard set by JCNA required to be reached before you can qualify and receive an invite to participate in a North American championship concours.

Those cars that meet or exceed this minimum standard would be awarded a prestigious award noting this accomplishment and would include their average achieved much like the championship plaques given out at present. This would be so that if the were unable to attend the Championship runoff itself because of the location are whatever. They still have a momento of their achievements for that year.

.This again as already suggested this event could be held alternately on the east side and west side of North American or even rotated around the districts and being hosted by all the different clubs that applied for it. This would match the best against the best and with the same pre selected and hand chosen judging teams doing the judging. We would end up with a true meaningful Champion in each class.

In addition the publicity that could be attracted by such an event would I am sure only serve to be beneficial in promoting both our organization and the Jaguar Marque even expanding us into areaÔÇÖs we are not well known in at present. Pebble Beach anyone.

This would totally remove the situation of enroute damage cripling an otherwise good year for somebody with a stout car.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Bob there is no one on this forum that does not cringe when looking at the pic. Ginger posted. To then state that anyone who has not supported your position on this topic "feel justified in intensifying the anguish of the owner by adding a point deduction" is just counterproductive and mean spirited. It suggests that following the rules to the letter is somehow a bad thing although all judges have promisse to do just that. It also suggests that the judging process is personal which it not. I would refer you to CIII P.2 B.4. (Be impartial). I would also suggest a reading of CIII P13 J.10. (Handicap points. The final point is covered in CIII P.15 L.1. AT ALL TIMES REMEMBER THAT, AS A JUDGE YOU ARE EVALUATING THE JAGUAR , NOT THE ENTRANT".

As far as C-19 goes you have picked an interesting topic. C-19 came about as a sort of handicap as excellent preserved cars had no chance of defeating fully restored cars. Some folks (like me) were more concerned in preserving cars that would have gone under the knife. C-19 has evolved some over the years but it has accomplished its goal for the most part.

Your statement that judging of this class is "totally absolutely and positively reliant on the entrant being truthful". This is just not true or correct. First C-19 MUST have a copy of the JDHT certificate with the car. Second there is an entry age for C-19 (20 years). Further C II P.4 3-5 provide the guidance. Can you restore a car to make it look preserved--- yes. Has it been done ---yes. Has abuse occurred --yes. But after all of that the rule and class has accomplished its purpose---encourage the preservation of good unrestored cars, not caving into a handicap system.
As a final note I have had a car represented as unrestored in C-19. I simply ask as chief judge for the entrants word that this is the way he has presented it. I remind him that if false he is risking his entry for that day for sure and future participation. But Bob what have you seen?
George Camp

>>>

That's one of them there joys of making a decision. You are forced to choose which side of the coin you find more comfortable to live with. It would seem that the majority of people that have posted a definitive position here so far would have jumped at the opportunity to have taken advantage of that gentlemanÔÇÖs misfortune.

Myself I would feel that if initially his car was superior to mine before the unfortunate accident, his car should win. If not than I should have been the one holding the trophy.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

I'm about to open another can of worm here... how much should have been deducted for this amount of damage?

Dent minumum is 0.2, max is 6 or 8 (OTS/FHC)
Paint chip is 0.1 to 6 or 8
Dent on chrome work is 0.1 to 6

Personally, i would have probably deducted 1 point for the dent itself, 0.5 for the paint and 1 point for the chrome trim...

but there are no detailed guidelines anywhere... i have a feeling 5 judges would probably come up with 5 different numbers.

the only rule is see that applies is in ch 3 :
" The Points Per Defect shown on the score sheets are minimums. If a Judge considers a particular defect to be more extensive than the minimum allows the Judge may take off more points than the minimum."

too lenient, too harsh?

Pascal Gademer

Bob,

I, like you, most definitely feel his pain. Who knows, next time, it could be any one of us.

At the time, I wasn't aware of where/when the damage had occured, so I thought that it was poor judging to not deduct for it. After finding out it was overlooked as recent damage, I accepted that because of my sympathy for him. Now, because of this thread, I have learned that the rules are currently disallowing a non-deduct for such damage.

I still don't want to change the scores or illicit sympathy for myself. I realize the judges are confident that it was inappropriate for me to know about it at all. For that mistake, I have some regret. I apologize to the judges and all of you for how I gained that knowledge, as I was helping and handling all the scoresheets in driven class and preparing a listing of all owners and scores for the awards banquet directly from the tallied sheets. Apparently, there is really no legitimate way anyone could ever know about such a non-deduct.

Personally, winning because of the other fellow's damage wouldn't feel very good; but I can't say that it would make me feel better to win with a damaged car. I hope he has good insurance and can get it fixed real soon. I like the fellow. I am still going to risk damage happening to my cars as I continue to drive them. Even a trailer is no guarantee.

For whatever it's worth, I didn't even want to bring it up specifically on this forum. Thanks for listening. I know I have a lot to learn.

Ginger Corda
1971 E-Type 2+2
1966 E-Type OTS

Edited on 2005-10-03 11:39:43

Just an observation on my part. You guys have to be a little different from me if you can look at that picture of the damaged car and not feel the pain of the owner. I can also only assume from the majority of opinions being expressed here that you feel justified in intensifying the anguish of the owner by adding a points deduction under the guise that the owner could be cheating and it would be unfair to all the other participants. Personally my reaction would have been to do everything possible to ease the distress of the owner.

Anyway if abuses were the main reason for not being in favour a rule change I suggest we should revisit class C-19 preservation class real soon. The judging process is totally absolutely and positively reliant on the entrant being truthful about the originality of the car.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Edited on 2005-10-03 1:45:41

Mike K. -

In case you think it was my idea, this forum thread was started without my input or knowledge. I haven't seen any entries from you on this topic, and in fact, I think you were replying to a message about the last sentence in Mike Fulton's post. Regardless of how much controversy this issue raised, I think all members should feel free to discuss JCNA scoring and other issues. Up until your post, it has been a general discussion without specifics of my experience. I suppose the cat's out of the bag now. (no pun intended)

Please don't get me wrong, I want the fellow to keep his first place status. As I've told Jim Hendrix, I had not planned to formally protest the incident, and accepted your explanation in the scoring room that it was allowable as recent damage. I think it actually happened in the parking lot the day before, but I could be wrong. After I read the clarification by Dick Cavicke, I just wanted you and others to know that such a non-deduct is wrong, despite whether or not you actually instructed your judges to ignore it.

How would I ever "have the right" to protest it? That's my only point on this forum ...How would one know that a judge has overlooked damage on someone else's car? The way you've described it, it sure looks like I should have declined the volunteer duty upstairs and stayed on the field!! I can't very well see what goes on from the scoring room, where I was 99% of the time. Would I have to look over the judge's shoulder to see whether or not he counted off for the damage had I been on the field? My friend was with my car for the judging so that I could help you guys out with the scoring. He is a qualified JCNA judge, as am I, and was the one who pointed out the obviously damaged bonnet to me. I did glance at the sheets and saw they had not deducted for it, and brought it to your attention as soon as I could possibly do so. If I have done wrong by having insider knowledge, I will accept that. I would hope that the judges involved will accept the fact that such damage should receive a deduction.

To clarify a little, when I pointed it out, the scoring was done, but the cars were still on the field and judges were still available and, in fact, were having to judge another XKE in preservation class. I only know that, too, because I was in the scoring room. I brought the damage to Jim's attention and told you guys I thought it was wrong. You indicated that the damage was done recently, and therefor overlooked, and since I only knew about it from being in the score room, would have to "suck it up."

Dick has cleared up the erroneous idea that such damage should be overlooked, athough deserving of hard luck awards and generalized pity. If the rule is something that needs to be changed, Dick has also outlined the procedures to request a change, as well as the procedures for a protest, but I have not been inclined to take it that far. I am not trying to get my score elevated or my opponent's score decreased, just joining the discussion for some clarity. I feel sorry for the fine gentleman who suffered the damage and hope he can get it fixed soon. I'm not even showing my Series III E-Type again this year. It's already won 1st in D4 twice in my 5 years as a member. I drove it up from Florida because it's a 2+2 and the luggage fits better than in my roadster. :-D

Now that everyone knows this particular story, I'm adding a picture of the damage being discussed. No hard feelings. Live and learn. I had a fine time and was happy to serve as a volunteer when called upon. The whole CC was great, and this incident will not diminish my enjoyment of it. I now how hard it is to put together a large event as I was Chair of the AGM this year in Orlando.

I'm glad we have these forums to help clarify issues such as this. I'm okay keeping the rule as it is, and will continue to drive my cars to events. Y'all come on down for the Slalom Nov. 20 in Florida.

Ginger Corda
1971 E-Type 2+2
1966 E-Type OTS

This protest rule has always had me a little mystified. How is one supposed to know how their car was judged, when.

a/ you donÔÇÖt get to see the score sheets till two weeks later
b/ the judge is encouraged not to get into a conversation with the entrant.

Two weeks down the road leaves it just a little too late to ask the chief judge to intervene in the dispute. Especially one you donÔÇÖt know you have till later when it is too late. This of course would not be the case with deductions for non-authentic items, you know about them right away because you are asked to sign for them. I have had a few very strange deductions taken for supposed blemishes on my car over the past two years that only the judge involved could see. I would have loved to have had the opportunity to have been able to request the chief Judge using an extra pair of eyes to offer a second opinion on them. Maybe some of them may have even been reversed, miracles are known to happen even on concours day. However as I said, two weeks down the road is just a little late to be asking for help

===========================================================================

"I. Complaints and Protests
1. Protests
The protest process is intended to allow Entrants to question the manner in which their Entry was judged and/or the deductions made during the judging. Depending on its nature, the protest may be made on the day of the event or after the score sheets are returned, but no later than 45 days following the event.

2. Settling On-Site Complaints or Protests
If, during a Concours, an Entrant voices a protest or complaint relating to any aspect of the judging of the class or of his or her Entry, the Chief Judge and the Judges involved must strive to settle the issue courteously and fairly on-site, prior to the awards presentation. If warranted, re-judging the Entry, or the entire class, is an option. Local club procedures will prevail and the Chief Judge will make the final decision. Complaints or protests that cannot be resolved may be dealt with through the Protest Procedures that follow.
=========================================================================

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic

Bob

Thanks...I should have re-read the entire document as there are many typos resulting in missplelled words. You are correct in that I have made a mistake in my last sentence.

Mike

......................................................

Here is the corrected document...

At the risk of stirring more controversy...I believe that we have blown this whole situation out of proportion at the Challenge Championship and now we are using the forum string to bash participation in future Concours events.

The situation with Ginger's car at the Concours is as follows...

Neither Jim Hendrix (Chief Judge) nor myself (Asst Chief Judge) instructed any judge during our training session to ignore any en route damage. Neither Jim nor I instructed any judge on the Concours field to ignore any en route damage.

Why the judge may or may not have deducted points for the dent in the bonnet of the participant in question is unknown, but I am confident that every judge makes his/her best effort to be fair and honest in their evaluation of every car in the class to make sure that the best cars win in the 15 minutes that is allotted to judge the car. We did our best to select judge's that were seasoned and experienced for this event.

Why Jim and I did not address Ginger's complaint at the event is the following...

First, Ginger was not present when her car was being judged. She was supporting the tabulation team in the winery where she did a great job! She did not have any first hand knowledge of any abnormalities during the time of judging.

The entrant is not supposed to have access to their score sheet prior to receiving it in the mail nor that of any other entrant during the event except to initial any deductions for non-authentic deductions that the judge may have found.

The fact that Ginger took it upon herself to both review her score sheet and that of her competition during the tabulation process was totally inappropriate. The fact that she compared the scores and saw that the other entrant did not receive a deduction for a dent that may or may not have been on the other entrant's car was again not correct.

Neither Jim nor I felt that it was appropriate for us to address this issue raised by Ginger not on the judging field but rather in the score tallying room, because of how she received the information. If this had been an issue that was surfaced on the judging field, both Jim and I would have been the first to aggressively resolve the issue as we were on the judging field more than 90% of the time.

I would encourage Ginger to protest her score if she feels that it should have been higher after she gets her score sheet and reviews the deductions that have been given. I still remain confident that she does not have the right to protest the score of another entrant after reviewing their score sheet for a deduction that she feels may have been the right thing to do that the judge may have missed.

Mike Ksiazek

Mike Ksiazek

Mike, Please re-read your last sentence.
Bob

At the risk of stirring more controvery...I beleive that we have blown this whole situation out of proportion at the Challenge Championship and now we are using the forum string to bash participation in future Concours events.

The situation with Ginger's car at the Concours is as follows...

Neither Jim Hendrix (Chief Judge) nor myself (Asst Chief Judge) instructed any judge during our training session to ignore any en route damage. Neither Jim nor I instructed any judge on the Concours field to ignore any en route damage.

Why the judge may or may not have deducted points for the dent in the bonnet of the participant in question is unknown, but I am confident that every judge makes his/her best effort to be fair and honest in their evaluation of every car in the class to make sure that the best cars win in the 15 minutes that is alloted to judge the car. We did our best to select judge's that were seasoned and experiened for this event.

Why Jim and I did not address Ginger's complaint at the event is the following...

First, Ginger was not present when her car was being judged. She was supporting the tabualtion team in the winery where she did a great job! She did not have any first hand knowledge of any abnormalities during the time of judging.

The entrant is not supposed to have access to their score sheet prior to reciving it in the mail nor that of any other entrant during the event except to initial any deductions for non-authentic deductions that the judge may have found.

The fact that Ginger took it upon herself to both review her score sheet and that of her competition during the tabualtion process was totally inappropriate. The fact that she compared the scores and saw that the other entrant did not receive a deduction for a dent that may or may not have been on the other entrant's car was again not correct.

Neither Jim nor I felt that it was appropriate for us to address this issue raised by Ginger not on the judging field but rather in the score tallying room, because of how she received the information. If this had been an issue that was surfaced on the judging field, both Jim and I would have been the first to aggressively resolve the issue as we were on the judging field more than 90% of the time.

I would encourage Ginger to protest her score if she feels that it should have been higher after she gets her scoresheet and reviews the deductions that have been given. I still remain confident that she does have the right to protest the score of another entrant after reviewing their scoresheet for a deduction that she feels may have been the right thing to do that the judge may have missed.

Mike Ksiazek

Someone commented that we had only a few out of 6,000 members posting here with opinions.

I had the chance to chat with half a dozen people about the issue at the Inland Empire Jag Club show that I attended today. Across the board everyone I spoke to ( I grant you , just 5 or 6 more of those 6,000 folks) agreed that en route damage was a regrettable but ever present situation and no special dispensation should be given due to the potential for abuse.

I think the incidence of damage is light. Ive done 11 shows in a row with nothing that couldnt be wiped off with quick detailer, and judged about 20 cars this year with no one mentioning any road damage. Maybe Ive been lucky, but I would bet you the incidence of physical road damage is very very small. Interesting though that its brought so many responses to the topic.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red
1995 XJS 4.0 Rose Bronze

>>

Sorry to hear that but that means that you and I have experienced something in common. I was forced out of my local club by the executive because I had the nerve to use my rights under the existing JCNA rules to lodge a complaint. This concerned the blatant bias used against myself (not the car) that a lead judge (now by the way the head Judge) and another, practiced when judging my car in 2003. The Club also blamed me for their being forced into complying with the JCNA rules by getting their judges certified. After that fiasco I decided I wanted nothing more to do with concours.

However a couple of avid concours participants using great patience with me managed to talk me into giving it one more try. I did and thanks to them, for the past two years I have had a great time, made lots of good friends and seen lots of great places. Enjoyed even more by being a member at large of JCNA. I meantime I have also managed to talk quite a few other people to come and participate as well.

Look sometimes my wording comes across a little harsh but that is the problem with the Internet. It tends to successfully eliminate the personality out of the posting. I am not quick to always say it but I do appreciate all the hard work, time and dedication it takes on the part of all those responsible for writing the rules. In addition to all the organization that is required behind that process. I applaud you all for what you have accomplished to date. At the same time I feel we still have a long way to go to iron all the wrinkles out. This is where I believe that participation by all should be encouraged, not scared away by using words that have not been thought out too clearly or the making of rash statements. We discourage so many when they are pounced on just because we donÔÇÖt agree with their position. All opinions have validity and should be treated as such by being accepted for consideration and welcomed. Doing this I believe would make people feel more.like they were part of the process instead of being alienated by it

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

I swore I would stay away from this for a couple of weeks because of my involvement in EURO Autofestival. But after reading some of the posts, I just couldn't hold back. Ginger, I am Sypathetic to your position and I belive that the rule book acknwoledges your position. You know I love you dearly, and I hope that all this is straightened out to your satisfaction or at least a logical explanation can be provided to you. I know you had a great time at the CC and hope that you remember it as a fun event.
Ken, yes I still think it is sad.
Bob, yup! the participation is pitiful. And you ask why so few people participate. Well I am a perfect example. I have traveled all over the Southeast, the past three years, doing various Jaguar Concours. I have been "baited" by judges before they judged my car, probably because they didn't know anything about the class, I have been slammed at another concours for something that was never deducted at my previous 8 concours, and I have even been criticized for coming to a show where I was the only car in my class, just so "you could win a plate". And I guess one of the most discouraging thinks that I witnessed was two guys on an elevator arguing about the judging of thier cars at 11:30 in the evening after an awards basket. And you think you have problems about the rules? I have not participated in concours this year, mainly because I haven't had the time and I don't think that it is a priority. I did enter the car in the CC Concours but she (as we say in the South) blowed up her ass end(Can i say that Pascal) and I declined to have her pushed on the field because I would not show her if I could not drive her. And the rules back that up.
To sum this up, we have to accept the rules as they are presently written and follow them to the letter. If you disagree with the rules, then submit a rule change to the rules committee or to your regional director for consideration. We have to live with what we have created and can only change it if we get involved. I hope I don't sound like a hard liner to you guys. Believe me, there are a lot of issues that I think have to be addressed and I will more than likely start some even bigger fires on this forum in the near future. For now, just drive and enjoy your wonderful cars.
Mike 1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

>>>"The sad thing about this is that there are 6000 members and we have
only 19 or so that have becomed involved with this discussion. Our
forums are a wonderful tool to express our ideas and comments, but
unfortunately, there are only a few of us that have enough enthusiasm to get involved."

There are only 176 members that have the motivation to travel to attend more than one concours as well. I would also suggest that a large number of these participants trailer their cars.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Dan they are mentioned every time they need to be. Ch1.CH2,CH5,Appendix A,B,C Classes. In fact they are mentioned as much as Jaguar if you leave out the them Jaguar when not used in general discussion. Take another peek at the rule book. George Camp

Ginger and others,
If you don't have your Rule Book handy, here's how the Chapter IV, Pages 6 & 7, Section I, addressing protests reads:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I. Complaints and Protests
1. Protests
The protest process is intended to allow Entrants to question the manner in which their Entry was judged and/or the deductions made during the judging. Depending on its nature, the protest may be made on the day of the event or after the score sheets are returned, but no later than 45 days following the event.

2. Settling On-Site Complaints or Protests
If, during a Concours, an Entrant voices a protest or complaint relating to any aspect of the judging of the class or of his or her Entry, the Chief Judge and the Judges involved must strive to settle the issue courteously and fairly on-site, prior to the awards presentation. If warranted, re-judging the Entry, or the entire class, is an option. Local club procedures will prevail and the Chief Judge will make the final decision. Complaints or protests that cannot be resolved may be dealt with through the Protest Procedures that follow.

3. Formal Protest
An Entrant's protest or judging dispute, that cannot be satisfactorily resolved at the local level, may be appealed to the JCNA Protest Committee for a decision. "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because the JCNA concours rules don't specifically address "enroute damage", if it occurs and is pointed out to the Judging Team by the Entrant, the Judging Team and Chief Judge must make an informed decision as to how it will be handled/scored. The intended JCNA standard is for the Entry to be judged as presented but, lacking definitive direction, some clubs and Entrants have apparently established local exceptions for enroute damage, and some Entrants have come to expect exceptions, when that damage is claimed. It might be rationalized that technically, the intent is being violated, but no rule broken.

Recent JCRC rule changes have been made with full knowledge and in response to incidents which prompted formal protests. To the best of my recollection, within the last 10 or more years, there have been no protests nor AGM issues relating to the scoring of "enroute damage". There are likely other problems lurking out there which the rules don't cover and we'll do our best to correct them if they are brought to our attention.

JCRC will continue to monitor this forum discussion, welcome qualified suggestions and attempt to address the basic "enroute damage" issue, in time for the 2006 AGM, with or without a formal proposal.

Accounts of enroute damage circulate rapidly throughout every show I've ever attended and many spectators make a point of seeing it for themselves. Anyone interested is free to ask the Chief Judge how such damage is going to be scored.

A few years ago a concours (non-entrant) attendee observed what he believed to be a rules deviation and filed a procedures-type protest. His action led to the following rule addition which, in light of the recent incident, may be a bit too restrictive.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"7. Non-Entrant Questions
Any JCNA member (not participating as an Entrant or representing an Entrant) with a question regarding the conduct of a JCNA Concours or the application of Concours Rules, should address that question directly to the event Concours Chairperson or the Chief Judge. If the question is not answered to the member's satisfaction, it should be forwarded to the JCNA Vice President. The Vice President may answer the question directly or refer it to the appropriate committee for a response."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Such questions and protests can result in a full range of corrective actions.

Dick Cavicke
Chair, JCNA, JCRC

George,

Thank you for your reply. I guess what Dick's message refers to, then, is a justifiable protest of the entire club/event, since no provisions allow for the protest of another person's non-deduct. I seriously doubt anyone is going to protest their own non-deduction unless they are just super honest and can't sleep at night knowing their score was undeserved (assuming they even knew about the non-deduct)! That would require a knowledge of the rules on their part, as well.

Bottom line, we are all at the mercy of the knowlege of the judges and their dedication to following the rules. As things stand, it is obviously quite easy for judges to erroneously overlook damage with no one *ever* being the wiser. This is why judges' training is so very important to the consistency and fairness of our scoring system. I'm glad we have the forums to discuss and improve all this stuff. I have a lot to learn.

Personally, I know that my car deteriorates with driving, and the scores over the years will reflect that. It's no big deal. You "show what you brung" and have fun with your friends, assuming you've taken the time to make some. If it gets too expensive, just show locally, where you can drive & return in one day, and skip the banquet & overnight expenses. They will mail the trophy. I've seen a lot of people who are only in this for the investment, and getting top scores help them with resale and insurance. To each their own, depening on their personal situation and comfort level with driving. I plan to drive and enjoy my cars and don't care about the next owner. ha ha

It's true that hard miles put on en route or during a rally or slalom deteriorate the condition of one's Jaguar. I'm glad JCNA isn't all about polishing, though. Mike Fulton may trailer Peaches to the location, but he rallies hundreds of miles, and slaloms in grand fashion. See the video clip of me in action (see link below) and ask yourself if you would be willing to risk the damage to have that much fun. (One day, I will learn to slalom with both hands on the wheel!) From the sound of it, the two ladies I had as passengers (runs combined in the video) enjoyed themselves as much a I did.

Ginger Corda aka "Cone Killer"
Jaguar Club of Florida
1971 E-Type 2+2
1966 E-Type OTS

"The sad thing about this is that there are 6000 members and we have
only 19 or so that have becomed involved with this discussion. Our
forums are a wonderful tool to express our ideas and comments, but
unfortunately, there are only a few of us that have enough enthusiasm
to get involved."

There now a 100 posts and going strong.
This shows a great deal of interest when lots JNCA members may not even use the Web (Sorry Pascal).

The forum is there for those who embrace the medium.

So far, it has been most edifying to me as a new face on the concours field.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada
90 XJ-S

Looking at the rules, I see Chap III at page 14 (Part K) states: "All judges should keep in mind that Jaguars were conceived and built to be driven. There are defects in the manufacturing process and defects created through use ... [when judging deductions]."

Also at K-10 further down: "[all judges decisions are ]... FINAL".

Inter-club protests - that's a non-starter for me.

P.S.
Why don't Rules mention SS and Daimler cars other than at the beginning?

I would like to hear what Mike Fulton has to say further (in due course) about all this.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada
90 XJ-S

Ginger you have hit the real problem. Currently there are no provisions for an entrant to protest another car. It was tried and the protest com. denied the protest and idea as there are no current rules to allow such. However there are rules and history of them being applied against a club or show if you want when the judging rule book is not followed. The details are not important and there was no voodoo going on just a major failure to follow the rules. In that case the JCNA board ruled and settled the matter in a way that did not kill the show or those not involved. Point is that there is history in this situation. Unless there were rule changes it would be a protest against the club or show. If you read my first post where I suggested they enjoy the grace extended and leave this alone you now see why. The worst case would be a cross club complaint or protest which would be ugly. I think these situations are exactly what the rule book suggests in C1 P.11 N5 and should be applied. George Camp

Edited on 2005-09-30 15:15:02

John after Dicks Cavicke post I donÔÇÖt expect you to get many confessions any time soon especially if they have been the beneficiary of a Judging allowance. However I can tell you that there are three of us from the Toronto area that travel to more than two other shows both in and outside our area. Every single one of us has suffered with damage this year at least once. Last year only one of us came through unscathed. Other than at this last show we have all taken the hits for the damage sustained. But in anycase if it happens to you it is one too many.

In fact I can go one step further and also tell you that one of this group has decided it is getting way too expensive and no longer worth all the hassle. They intend to throw in the towel for next year. I am really going to miss them because I really enjoyed their company.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.

Something I haven't seen discussed yet.

How many instances of "in transit" damage actually occur each year? And, how many potential entrants actually decline to travel to shows due to the fear of "in transit" damage?

I am betting the actual numbers are extremely small in both cases.

Regards, John

Edited on 2005-09-30 11:50:02

Okay Pascel That was extremely logical and under the present rules and regulations of JCNA. I can accept what you have said.

However we all have to agree that the whole time a car is on a public road a risk of damage exists. We may differ with our opinions as to the extent of that risk but it does exist otherwise we would not need to put insurance on our cars. We could all do like a lot of people already do and that is start trailering our cars to the shows, that would certainly remove the risk but is that what JCNA is trying to encourage. So the rules state the car has to be driven onto the show field. This rule has no teeth because it is so easy to circumvent by parking the rig around the corner and then driving the car the last few hundred feet onto the show grounds.

The alternative is to encourage people to use and enjoy their cars. However if you choose to do this you are handing a huge advantage to the local car and the one that is lashed down and kept safely in a trailer.

I was proud as hell of my original 92 Black Cherry. I totally restored it myself and it had 188,000 on the clock. People that have seen it would agree that it was in as near perfect condition as I could keep it. It was driven regularly and sure, it had suffered a few stone chips in the paintwork that I had religiously fixed. I was really lucky with that car, I took it to nineteen cars shows with sixteen wins, two seconds and a very contentious sixth at Toronto Concours. Because of damage to my windshield that I scored on the 91/2 hour drive to my last show of the 2004 season at Indianapolis. (Just remembered that) My car dropped out of a three-way tie for first place into third in the North American standings in 2004. My car presently sits in a very close third this year only .0033 out of second (thanks to two extremely small ripples spotted by some eagle-eyed judge on the edge of one of my sun visors. Bummer, thought I was going to get my first ever perfect score that day as well). Thankfully the only time I have had any road damage this year was on the way to Columbus (got it right this time Tom) when I tore both exhausts systems off the car.

Now we have a choice, we can continue to put the advantage into the hands of both those that only attend just the local shows and those that trailer their cars. Alternatively we can attempt to encourage people to get out and enjoy their cars more by leveling the playing field by attempting to alleviating the risk taken by those that choose to use and enjoy their cars, driving them long distances to the shows. This may also encourage more people to participate as well as pre-enter their cars into the shows.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic

"Even if they had counted the windshield and the crack in the headlight I believe I would still have won the class.

Now please explain to me and everybody else if you will. How on earth by them allowing to overlook these two items on my car it has effect anybody else's scores."

Bob,

how on earth can anyone not understand that once a member competes for regional or North American award, overlooking these two items can have a dramatic effect at the end of the year!!!

Not only do we have ties at the end of the year, but we have plenty of close scores where a chip or crack can make a difference in the standings.

If it was just for a local show, then maybe...just maybe, overlooking in transit damage might be ok. Not for R/NA standings. already, there are variations in jduging consistency, imagine if we bring in ovelooking deducts!!!!

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe

I've been reading all of this and believe me, there are more than 19 people interested, just not posting. I have just one point to make.

Dick Cavicke says, "A club's practice of overlooking enroute damage may justifiably be protested and result in the disqualification of the affected entries."

I really don't see "how" such a non-deduct for damage can be protested by the other car owner(s) in the division at any particular show. How would you even know about the non-deduct? The judges wouldn't be inclined to discuss with you what they are overlooking on your competition's car. In fact, the owner of the damaged car may not know it's being overlooked until they receive their score sheets weeks later. On such a non-deduct, the owner wouldn't have to initial the scoresheet at the show like they would for non-authentic deducts. We can't assume that the owner has asked for the judges to overlook it. It is possible that the judges may take it upon themselves to overlook it. So, how can you actually protest the judge's erroneous scoring of another car? Would you just be protesting the club's practice?

Ginger Corda
Jaguar Club of Florida
1971 E-Type 2+2
1966 E-Type OTS

Thank you George. You answered a question but unfortunately not the very simple one I ask.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
MK II 3.4 Automatic.

Deep sigh. Ok Bob I will give it one more shot although it is not for everyone else as I have spoken to several posters off line who get it.

Under the current and long standing JCNA judging philosophy a car is judged against a standard. That standard is simply the way the car was when it left the factory, or more importantly (sometimes)the way the manufacturer intented it to leave. It is that standard that should be used when the car is judged.

The reason we have a huge rule book and a full time rules com. is an attempt to make the system accurate and fair. This has been an ongoing project for years and occasionally there are posts on here when folks are not happy with the situation.

The goal is that a car that travels from show to show will receive a very similar score due to its current condition as compared to the standard.

What is not desired is that cars at a given show are compared to each other and awards are made on that basis.

Although rarely seen a car may score higher at a given show and not receive a 1st place JCNA award because the points awarded were not high enough. This is a clear indicator there is a higher goal than this one show.

Perhaps I can come up with a better example. Let's say that 3 identical cars are shown 3 times each at shows in a year. None of the 3 cars is ever at the same show with another. All cars are perfect and all cars are preped the same. 1 car shows up at each of its 3 shows with road damage that is overlooked by the judging team. The other 2 cars have no damage.

Although the 2 non damaged cars receive high scores they do loose points for some small things like chips and non functioning bulbs.

The 3rd car shows up at the first show with a smashed front wing so the non functioning headlamp and flasher are overlooked.

It shows up at the second show with a broken windshield and very chipped paint on the front including chrome damage. At the third show there is no deduction

At the end of the year the car with the damage wins the National first in class.

While cudos should be given to the 3rd cars owner for being dedicated the other 2 cars owners would not be happy and depending on the owners and what they knew a protest would follow.

It is early in the morning and this example may not be the best but the point is that what is done or not done at each show may (and often does) effect the whole JCNA organization. That is why clubs and most importantly the chief judge promises to follow JCNA rules. JCNA acception this word Sanctions the show. When rules are not followed whole classes can be nullified by JCNA in fact whole shows could be nullified.

My last post to you was simple. I wanted once more to remind you that shows do not stand alone.

Bob if you had head many of my posts as you said you would (or should) see that I and others often provoke discussion to extract well thought out responses to situations. I personally have no problem with a rule allowing this but it would have to be well thought out, easy to administer, easy to train, adn fair. Do not know how long you have been in JCNA but it will be 30 years for me soon. Hate to say it but we have "gamers" who will take full advantage of any rule. They are there for the trophy and do not care what they have to do or say to get it. If you take care of your cars as well as you say I would hope you would see that this discussion may protect you in properly legislated rules change and not let you be car 1 or 2.

I look forward to seeing your well thought out rules change proposal at the AGM. Perhaps Bob you might post it on the forum for further discussion once you have thought it out and flushed out the logistics. George Camp

Earlier this evening, I had a conversation with a gentleman that is a SERIOUS car collector and is a member of several different clubs. I had mentioned the discussion on our forum about in transit damage, and much to my surprise, he told me that most of the organizations he belongs to make exceptions for these situations. I hope to get my hands on documentation from some of these clubs to see how they address the problem. Let's not rush into this. Let me see what kind of information I can dig up. Then we can share it and have maybe a better idea on how to approach the issue. Whatever is proposed to the rules committee is going to have to be well thought out, well written, and backed-up with accurate information.
Mike

1938 SS Jaguar 1.5 Litre Saloon
More affectionately known as PEACHES

Tell you what George I will give it just one more try using an exact scenario. My car arrives at the Michigan concours and on the way there it gets damaged. I found exactly three stone chips in the windshield and the driverÔÇÖs side headlight had a crack, it still worked but had a very small crack but it was cracked none the less. I also received numerous paint chips in the front valance and two in the bonnet. In addition to this I had some stone grazing along one side and a very small dent in the rear door. I fixed all the stone chips with touch up paint so according to the rules these would not be counted anyway. The stone grazing and dent in the door were counted but the Judges overlooked the three stone chips in the windshield and the cracked headlight. I received a score of 99.89 and the guy that took second place received 99.59. Even if they had counted the windshield and the crack in the headlight I believe I would still have won the class.

Now please explain to me and everybody else if you will. How on earth by them allowing to overlook these two items on my car it has effect anybody else's scores.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic

Bob I look foward to your presentation of this idea at the AGM. George Camp

Edited on 2005-09-29 21:03:58

George I would respectfully suggest that is one ridiculous suggestion.

Because a car has suffered a broken windshield on the way to a concours does not suggest that the car has been prepared to a lower standard than it had been a week or two before when attending another show. It simple says we will over look your broken windshield and judge the car as if that had never happened. It absolutely in no way effects the scores or scoring that others cars may have been awarded or have achieve at other shows.

I also donÔÇÖt agree with the explanation you sent me off list, it just does not make any sense whatsoever. JCNA is a set number of shows each separately scored and I totally agree with you with you up to that point. However your reasoning stops right there and mine continues on. I go on to where JCNA takes those scores and groups them into twoÔÇÖs and threeÔÇÖs for the year end awards. One bad score because of enroute damage can and most often does, elevate an inferior car above a superior car and that should never be allowed to happen. Awards are supposed to go to the best cars in each class not the luckiest.

In addition I personally don't really believe that other entrants in a class at any individual show should have to be asked to approve it a request for a enroute damage allowance. I just added that part to cover some of the objections that have been expressed on this list. No matter how you look at it a 99.0 car is a 99.0 car no matter what concessions other cars might be given. I have also come to realize from reading other posts that you have made, that you are not one to be easily swayed. So this is as far as I am prepared to go trying to do just that.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
MkII 3.4 Automatic

Bob in your first section you state that all other entrants in that class must be notified and agree. I state once more that you would have to get that to everyone who has shown in that class in that year and everyone who will show in that class in the year. One show does not stand alone. It is a subset of the JCNA year. George Camp

If anyone wants to change the existing JCNA Rules to accommodate enroute damage, or anything else, the procedure is to submit a formal and complete request to JCRC. Some suggestions sound reasonable and simple until one tries to make them into a fair, comprehensive and all-encompassing rule.

To cover many of the Forum issues, it is recommended that any proposed change relating to "enroute damage" include:

1. A form and a process which enables every Entrant to apply for an enroute damage exception, no matter how far they have traveled. (This could include damage which might even occur when taking a car out of its trailer.)
========================================================================

Firstly the exterior judging sheets would be changed to include a box on the face of the sheet that can be marked if an allowance for enroute damage has been awarded. Detailed of such award including a list of the recognized damages covered by this allowance would be detailed on the reverse side of the of the judging sheet.

This would serve two purposes.

a/ list and limits the items that the exterior judge has to allow for
b/ makes a permanent record of the details of such claim.

I cannot draw a application form on the forum so I will try to describe it. I envisage that it would contain the following.

Date.
The Identity of Concours at which the application is being made
Entrants name.
Their JCNA number.
Class entered.
Description of the car
A brief description of the incident and how it happened.
Location that the incident took place.
Details of the damage being claimed for.
Place for the other participants of the effected class to acknowledge their agreement for such an allowance being made by the judges.

Note.. All other participants in the same class would have to be notified by the entrant and their agreement obtained prior to this application being processed for consideration by the chief judge.
=============================
2. A procedure for the event's Chief Judge to use in determining:
a. Which applications/occurrences will be considered valid.

The completed application form together a copy of judging sheets from the last concours that the subject car has attended be presented to the chief judge for consideration prior to the mandatory judges meeting. Only damage that have the appearance of being totally fresh will be considered. I see that the Chief Judge as having the final ruling on this.
==============================
b. When such applications should be screened and who should verify the circumstances.

The chief Judge together with the judges should screen the car to verify the claim and the damages that are being claimed for. This can be done on their pre inspection tour of all the cars.
============================
c. What criteria qualify certain damage to be overlooked and other damage to be penalized.

Claims for damage will only include items that cannot be repaired or corrected on the concours field in the opinion of the chief Judge. His decision would again be final.
I.e. Items such as stone chips in the paintwork can be rectified easily by the careful application of touch up paint. These then would never be considered valid items to be considered for a enroute damage allowance.
=================================
d. What limits must be observed? Does every trace of damage qualify and/or how much damage is too much.

Chief Judge to determine how much damage can be attributed to the incident and how much of the damage will be considered for an enroute judging allowance. His decision would be final.
=================================
d. Whether enroute damage is allowed in all divisions; Preservation class?

The opportunity to claim for transit damage would be available to all entrants of all classes.
==============================
e. Whether an Entry's scores, which have repeatedly been adjusted for enroute damage, should be allowed to count toward a JCNA Regional or Championship standing?

Being required to present the previous shows judging sheets will prevent claims for enroute damage from being carried over from concours to concours..
===============================
3. The rationale (for the edification of rest of the competition) which might allow a car to still receive a very high score, up to 100 points, despite substantial damage at the time of judging.

Properly authorized enroute damage allowance would render the car qualified for a perfect score just as if it had not been subjected to enroute damage.
==================================
4. The suggested method of distinguishing between new and old damage and what to do if the enroute
Damage is on top of some items that were already in poor condition.

Only damage that can be clearly attributed to the entrantÔÇÖs description of the incident would be considered for the enroute damage allowance. Any and all doubt will go against the applicant. All other damage that has been made visible to the judges will be so noted and an appropriate deduction will be made for such damage. Again the chief judges decision would be final.
===============================
5. The method by which a score will be annotated so that, if the car is shown at a later concours, the same damages will not be allowed a second time.

This would be covered by the addition of a box on the front of the exterior judging sheet which would be clearly marked and the details of such enroute allowance being detailed on the reverse side.
The judging sheet from the previous concours attended would have to be presented to the Chief judge along with the completed application form, if not the application would not be considered.
The sheet will firstly indicate if this damage has been claimed for previously and if not whether or not the previous judges had made a deduction for such similar damage prior to this concours.
=================================
6. Is enroute damage allowance a "silver bullet" or can it be granted at every concours the car ever enters?

Covered in item 5 above.

Okay guys fire away. Lets have your comments.

Bob.
92 Ser III V-12 VDP #31 Canadian Edition
87 Ser III V-12 VDP
86 Ser III AJ6/Soveriegn
85 Ser III XJ6/VDP
Mk II 3.4 Automatic.