How woudl this be deducted?

Dick.. i guess my math was off too... i started with 2.5 then ended up with 99.98 instead of 99.75... oh well... you all better check your averages in the standing just in case my programing skills are as good as my math!

so... so far we have 2.5, 2.5, 4.0 and 6.0 that's quite a spread isn't it? Dick, what's your take ?

this shows that some emphasis needs to be placed on the nitty gritty of judging, either thru some text examples or pictures. I have attended our club seminar twice and always thought there was not enough attention on quntifying deductions.

Pascal Gademer

I'd deduct 3.0 for the dent, 1.0 for the chipped paint and 2.0 for the dented chrome.

JCSNE Membership Chairman & Chief Judge
Member of JCRC (Jaguar Concours Rules Committee)
1974 SIII

I would think a total deduction of 2.5 for this level of damage was too lenient. I agree on the 1 point deduction for the dented chrome but the body dent is, IMO, too large for less than a 2 point deduction. The chipped paint, if not touched up by the entrant to at least prevent possible rust is a 1 point deduction. If touched up, I would agree on the .5 deduction for a break in the finish of that size.
You are right on the "Human Factor" when judging such levels of damage among several judges. The individual psychological response we all have when seeing an otherwise beautiful Jaguar with such damage plays a significant part in how we measure and decide on the points we subtract. In my business (Professional Numismatist) I have to grade a coin according to its "eye appeal" as well as by its apparent flaws as I measure them. Even when a coin is graded by three professionals together who agree
on a specific grade, there are many cases recorded when the same coin is re-graded at another time, by another team of professions, with a significantly different outcome. We can have guidelines but the interpretation of those guidelines still require human subjectivity and that is where the deviations are created. I don't think we can really do anything to reduce this subjectivity without increasing the number of judges to a larger team size and therefore get a more consistant average. But that is, of course, impractical.

Edited on 2005-10-18 11:46:24

JCSNE Membership Chairman & Chief Judge
Member of JCRC (Jaguar Concours Rules Committee)
1974 SIII

I would think a total deduction of 2.5 for this level of damage was too lenient. I agree on the 1 point deduction for the dented chrome but the body dent is, IMO, too large for less than a 2 point deduction. The chipped paint, if not touched up by the entrant to at least prevent possible rust is a 1 point deduction. If touched up, I would agree on the .5 deduction for a break in the finish of that size.
You are right on the "Human Factor" when judging such levels of damage among several judges. The individual psychological response we all have when seeing an otherwise beautiful Jaguar with such damage plays a significant part in how we measure and decide on the points we subtract. In my business (Professional Numismatist) I have to grade a coin according to its "eye appeal" as well as by its apparent flaws as I measure them. Even when a coin is graded by three professionals together who agree
on a specific grade, there are many cases recorded when the same coin is re-graded at another time, by another team of professions, with a significantly different outcome. We can have guidelines but the interpretation of those guidelines still require human subjectivity and that is where the deviations are created. I don't think we can really do anything to reduce this subjectivity without increasing the number of judges to a larger team size and therefore get a more consistant average. But that is, of course, impractical.
Harold

Yes, you're right Dick, my math was in error.
Thanks.

Patrick

Patrick,
Maybe you're a victim of the "new math" but, here in Southern CA, 1000 minus 2.5 divided by 10 comes out to be 99.75. Still a very respectable score.

Regards,
Dick Cavicke

minimum deduct for a dent is 0.2 if they are really barely perceptible, i'd probably deduct 0.2 per dent...

Pascal

Well, let me ask you this. There is a small, barely perceptable "parking lot" dent on each right and left door. In total, 2 very small dents. How would you score them if the minimum deduction was say .1 ?

Patrick

i guess i am... if there is nothign else wrong with the car, 2 points seem fair. What would you deduct?

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe

Surely you can't be serious that this could ever possibly be a 99.98 champ car.

Patrick

Patrick

not sure what you mean by "If EVERYTHING was perfect except for this dent, could you call this a 98-point car" ? i said i'd take 2 points off making the score 998 or 99.8 in Champ / 9.98 in Driven

Pascal

Just throwing in my 2 cents, I might consult the head judge on this one. I also believe you have to take into consideration the condition of the rest of the car. If EVERYTHING was perfect except for this dent, could you call this a 98-point car? I don't know. If the rest of the body was in poor shape as well and you've already knocked it down to the 95 or 94 point level, then heaping on another 3 or 4 points serves little purpose and will only discourage this person from returning to another concours. An exterior judge can also tell the kind of hits this car will be getting from the interior and engine judges. So on an otherwise perfect car, I would be slightly more "critical" of a dent like this rather than one that is beat up all over. You don't want to give any free rides, but you don't want to be heavy-handed either. The entrant should know going in that he/she is in for some potentially major deductions, and should expect no less.

It's another club badge.

Ginger Corda
1971 E-Type 2+2
1966 E-Type OTS

I see nothing wrong with your call. I bet the spread would not be as much as you think. What is that round thing just peeking up on the lower right? George Camp