Stumped and so are the Jaguar Techs!

Well, we removed and replaced the srarter this afternoon and welded a few weak spots on the exhaust right in front of both mufflers. So far so good. My mechanic friend said these gear reduction starters are similar to what Chrystler product vehicles used to use years ago.He also said they will heat up and not revolve(the darn thing was almost 14 years old so God bless it anyway)and also they can short out just as a regular starter.As I pulled out all happy and such the left front fog lamp bulb holder fell out as to say don't be too happy. It was funny.....Ed

Found it! Rear fog safety lamps.No wonder.

I have another question. There are two red lights in the rear bumper on a 93 XJ6. They have never lit up since I owned the car and I thought they were just reflectors till I took off the rear bumper this winter and found they were wired in. I traced the wires back to a rear lamp relay in the trunk corner and tested the wires after the relay. No juice. I want to splice the wires in before the relay but my question is,are they marker lights or brakelights? Thank you...Ed Picone

Thanks Vern...I'll be busting my knuckles this weekend on this project. My check engine light doesn't come on but it was an interesting article. My mechanic friend seems to think the same as you. Says the solenoid is probably not kicking out all the way from heat and then it cools down after a couple hours and thats why she'll fire up like normal then. I hope it's that simple.

Vern Ackels
1996 XJ12 x300 Owner

Ed, The XJ6 has a different starter (Bosch vise Magneti Marelli), but I am confident the level of difficulty to replace it will be the same. The problem is: there is very little room between the transmission tunnel and the upper side of the starter motor. In addition, I forgot to mention, there are several heat shields that need to be removed (steering, starter, and firewall). In my case the heat shield between the catalytic converter and the starter was missing. I believe, this resulted in the starter motor and solenoid being baked from the heat (located about 5 inches above the convertor). A mechanic hired by the previous owner had worked on the passenger side under-carriage, and perhaps forgot to reinstall the heat shield, or it may have fallen out on its own.
BTW, once you get a 12mm socket on the top bolt head, you must drive it on tight with a hammer to insure it doesn't slip when applying torque. I used a 1/2 drive with a 3/8 adapter and universal to break the bolt loose. If I have to do it again, I plan to leave the socket on the bolt head for future access. Also, it is helpful to have the car off the ground on a rack when doing this work.
P.S. my check engine light doesn't come on anymore after replacing the starter...just a thought.
Good Luck, Vern

Doug,I read a short article on a parts web-site about a shortcut to shut off a check engine light and any other vcm faults. Was that by you and if it was you should put together a whole book of hints and shortcuts. I'll buy it.....Ed

Vern,that sure sounds like it was a project.Good for you to have figured all that out and good for me if I don't have to go through that with an XJ6.

Vern Ackels
1996 XJ12 LWB Owner
I just finished replacing the starter in my beautiful road companion, and found it not so simple. The car would only start on occasion. Voltages, and current checks indicated it should work, but it did not start.
Mitchel instructions said to just remove the two bolts and reinstall in the same pattern (be sure to remove any grime or dirt from the bell housing).
It is a lot harder on my beautiful clean car to just replace the starter. I had to remove the catalytic converter (4 bolts & clamp) and lower the rear engine mount 4 inches to gain access to the top bolt holding in the starter. The top bolt is a 12 mm/12 point fastener! After several hours, making clay patterns of a bolt head (that I could only feel, but not see); I finally figured how to get a 1 meter (3 ft) extension to reach a universal and socket on the bolt head.
Now the job is done after two days effort, the new starter works perfect.
Now, I can enjoy my retirement, too.

It sounds to me like you may have had the right diagnosis from the first. A faulty neutral safety switch could certainly cause the problem. Why not jumper it out, and see what happens? Just be careful not to try to start in gear.

Ed I hope the new starter resolves the problem. When connecting the new one, just clean the wire's ring or spade terminals with a soft brass brush or even with an old toothbrush dipped in alcohol to remove grease and grime, for good contact.

here's a picture of the separate Start Solenoid in my '65 S type; It is located in the engine compartment, on the firewall. it has a push button that will crank the engine when you're working on it, or for emergencies if the Dash Start Button inside the car fails. I can crank the engine from this Start Solenoid, regardless if the Ignition Switch is On or Off. If the Ignition Switch is On, and the transmission is in Park or Neutral, the engine will start.

Of course, if the Starter itself goes bad, this Solenoid will not crank the engine, but if both the Dash Start Button and the Solenoid don't crank the engine, you can safely guess the problem is the starter. They just don't make them like they used to.

The starter I bought fits 89-97 XJ6 and 92-96 XJS,so if I find it's not the answer it will be for sale.From two people I talked to today and actually got to experience this vehicle first hand they said it looks like the way to go. Man I hope they're right.J.A.M. I think you're absolutely right about the built in solenoid. That also was the response I got from them. One an avid Jaguar fan and the other a very good mechanic.

Thanks guys. I went on E-bay and found a complete starter with the built-in solenoid for about $150.00 shipped.Bought a couple different things from this outfit before and everything was as shown. Also their out of California so everything I've recieved has been in very good and clean condition (no Ohio crud and rust) I'm gonna remove and clean every connection I can find because it sure won't hurt. You've all been very helpful with suggestions and I appreciate it. So now here is a little horror story that happened to my retired friend today.(I told him to wait and we could have done it Saturday) Took his 99 XJ8 to the dealer because the front calipers were sticking .2 Calipers+ Pads+ $330.00 for 1 1/2 hours labor= $910.00.After the fact he said he understands how it feels to get real screwed. I told him he should not have sold his pick-up after he retired. The Jag is his only vehicle now.

I'm not sure how this works on a 1993 Jaguar, but I will be willing to bet it's one of four things:

1) Starter itself. I had a very similar problem on a 1988 Mitsubishi Starion. We replaced the starter with a remanufactured unit -- one week later, it does it again. So I'm thinking it can't be the starter again; turns out, it was. We replaced a bad unit with another bad unit. Swapped to a third starter under warranty, no problems since.

2) Ignition switch. Had a 1974 Bricklin SV-1 that had a faulty ignition switch and would do this same thing. Replaced switch, no problems.

3) Starter solenoid.

4) Shift-interlock. I'm assuming your car has one from reading the posts above. I had a 1988 Mitsubishi Sigma that liked to pick the worst times to not start, and it was the "Am-I-in-park?" check switch. The car thought I was trying to start in reverse or something.

1963 XKE (sold)
1976 XJ12L (dead)
1988 XJS (sold)
1999 XJ8

thanks Doug! looking at your car list, I noticed you have a V12 XJS Coupe. There's one of those in my neighborhood that has been sitting for the last 5 years in the same place. 5 years prior the owner was selling it and I test-drove it, it was a very quiet engine that felt like an airplane taking off, lot of 'thrust'pulling me back into the seat. Are these cars reliable or lots of trouble? I'm curious because the guy never sold it, (he was asking a lot back then), and then he just parked it there where it has remained.

"This is not your basic take off the connections,clean-em up and tighten.This is the Jaguar monkey at it's best."

Actually I tend to disagree. A great many of the much ballyhooed Jaguar 'electrical problems' are solved by cleaning and tightening connectors. I wouldn't be surprised if it fixes yours as well. If there is such a thing as a Jaguar monkey it would be dirty/loose/corroded conenctions.

An intermittant "no crank' is not so rare. We get 'em in the shop fairly often on a wide variety of cars.

J.A.M.--- good write up on the starter thing :-)

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Edited on 2006-03-20 0:23:25

I had a similar problem with the great-great grandfather of your car, a 1965 Jaguar S type. No cranking, battery charged, fuel pumps pumping, stereo playing, everything but the cranking action. I removed the Starter after isolating that it was not the Starter Solenoid, (mine has a separate Solenoid with a pushbutton mounted on the firewall, in case the ignition switch goes to "L"). I applied power to the starter outside of the car. Nothing. conclusion: the Starter. I took it to a Starter Shop, ran fine over there. Brought it home and tested again, ran fine. Took it apart, cleaned the bushes and the armature with very fine sandpaper until they looked like polished gold. (a very messy and delicate job). Reinstalled it and the engine cranked like never before. Haven't had the problem again. Your problem sounds like the Starter to me, and since yours has a built-in Solenoid, (bad idea), it might cost the same to rebuild it or replace it. I would try one of the new Gear-Reduction Starters being sold today, (check eBay, there's a fellow there who has them new for under $200.00 for most European cars); I hear the GR Starters are more efficient, with half the weight of a regular starter. I haven't bought one because one is not made for my car yet, but the minute they make it, I'm getting it.

If you are able, do it yourself and save the labor cost. If not, buy the Starter and call around until you find a Jaguar mechanic who will R&R yours for a labor only charge, or just get an estimate for the Starter plus Labor. Here's a picture of my 1965 Lucas Starter after I refurbished it. That dinosaur weighs 28 pounds, it is dated 1964, and it was designed to be maintained, not replaced. That thing has lasted 41 years! Military quality to say the least.

As a start it might be worth tapping a test light into the hot feed from the ignition switch to the starter circuit, leave it there and wait until the problem occurs no light means it is the switch Jaguar affectionado and etc.

If you have a DEAD car,pick-up Semi, Bulldozer or Excavator I'll get it running for you because broke things are broke and that's what I do. Not so with a Jaguar I've found out. A shot starter or solenoid would be a God-send.This thing starts and runs perfectly and then decides to take a dump,but only for awhile. This is not your basic take off the connections,clean-em up and tighten.This is the Jaguar monkey at it's best.

"you need a real MECHANIC not a technician as these guys are often clueless unless they can plug their computers to what parts they need to throw at the problem... "

Painting with the extra wide brush today, eh ?

Problems of this nature can flummox even an experienced MECHANIC at an independant shop

That being said, my first thoughts go to a faulty stater and/or some dirty-loose-corroded connections in the cranking circuit.

Since the problem is so sporadic it can be hard to tell when you've hit paydirt. I'd start with a systematic and thorough examination/cleaning/tightening of ALL terminals and wires in the cranking circuit. I wouldn't be surprised if you stumbled on at least a few that are suspicious. If you are not doing this yourself you'll could run up a little bill paying for this at your shop's hourly rate....but it can't be rushed.

If you are a decent DIY guy such a drill would make an interesting Saturday afternoon diversion.

Of course, catching it "in the act" with your test light or multi-meter at the ready would be ideal.....familiarize yourself with the primary checkpoints first and then be ready to quickly investigate where the voltage (or ground) begins and ends.

Or, yes, the starter could have a "dead spot". I hate guesswork but in a situation like this sometimes you have to make a decision---keep living with the problem until it becomes consistant enough to make a firm diagnosis or start taking a few educated guesses. A starter replacement, in fact, may be less money than the above mentioned detective work if you are paying a "real MECHANIC" or even a lowly technician to do all your snooping and checking. Of course, there's no promise that it'll solve the problem.

I never owned an XJ40 but my experience on various other Jags is that the starter circuit is not rocket science-like. It just takes patience and time to track down the problem.

Another alternative is to wait until it won;t start at all, period. Then you have a "hard failure" which should be easy to diagnose

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1987 XJ6 Ser III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

Thanks....I'm thinking that there must be a relay between the ignition and the starter thats not blown but is heating up and then cooling down. I've traced and fixed a couple of electrical problems with this 93 and it being an Ohio car it was necessary even though I don't drive it in the winter any more. Spent all last winter replacing every piece of chrome that had a pit on it and then stripped off the bumpers and took it to a body shop and had every little foul spot repaired and repainted so you see why this problem is making me crazy. The car is pretty as it can be but how can I take it out under these conditions. I know this is a simple fix but I need to run into someone like your dad that experienced it! HELP!!!!!

intermittent problems are teh worst to troubleshoot.

try to eliminate teh starter/solenoid first. have you tried disconencting the batery to see if that clears the problem ?

come and think of it, years ago my father had a similar issue with a1994 XJ40... it was still under warranty but it took at least 3 or 4 tows (all covered by Jaguar) to the dealer for them to finally find the problem. I wish i remember what it was... not sure if it woudl crank or not though. discon. the battery would reset the ECUs so if the problem is an electronic glitch, that would clear it...

Pascal Gademer

Pascal,sometimes I can sit in this car and start it 10 times in a row and not a problem. Smetimes start it once and shut it off and I have to wait an hour. Not a flywheel problem either from my own experience with cars. Crazy uncommon problem with this one. Thanks.

(thread moved to model specific forum where it belongs...)

the answer to your question is right in the subject you typed. Jaguar Tech.

you need a real MECHANIC not a technician as these guys are often clueless unless they can plug their computers to what parts they need to throw at the problem... find yourself an independent jaguar specialist...

first thing to do is to see if the problem maybe in the starter/solenoid. when that happens, see if there power going to the starter/solenoid... it could be a contact problem, wiring, etc... no need to replace the starter unless you know it's the issue...

Pascal