Propose Changes in Preservation Class

Art Dickenson.
1983 XJS GT "Silver"
Pacific Jaguar.ca

Hey if we think we have problems with JCNA Judging right now , just imagine getting guy's to go under these beauties, not my style, however I believe we all know the word for going to these extremes, Art

If there is interest in/support for a 360 degree super class, I have no objection although it may too much for me personally.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto, Canada

'90 XJ-S (built '89)
'62 XKE (built '61)
'60 XK150S (built '59)
'89 XJS Junior

Art Dickenson.
1983 XJS GT "Silver"
Pacific Jaguar.ca

There probably should be a HIGH DOLLAR CLASS for people who have rotisseried their car, either themselves or via their cheque book. I have heard complaints re people who have written big cheques and done very little of the work themselves. I guess that is their choice if they have the funding. Personally I have enough people checking out my suspension on "Silver" but I would not want to be judged on it, or anything else under there.

"Are suggesting a look at the bottom of the car for cleanliness or authenticity? Authenticity of an XJS or XK8 bottom sounds daunting. "

Hi Dan,

Well, as far as I know, underbodies and suspension are judged on Corvettes, T-Birds, Porsches, etc. so why not Jags?

But, in truth, that's just one idea. What I'm *really* suggesting, though, is adding a couple more levels of competetion to the the program. I think a fair number would rise to a higher level (some are probably already there) but perhaps *many* more would participate in a lower level.

Elsewhere on the forum there's a long discussion on getting (and keeping) more members involved in concours events. This might be a way.

Cheers

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Are suggesting a look at the bottom of the car for cleanliness or authenticity? Authenticity of an XJS or XK8 bottom sounds daunting.

Regards, Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S, etc.

Just to throw out an idea......

Has anyone considered (drastically) reducing the number of classes but *increasing* the levels of competetion?

Without giving it much thought maybe something like......

"Gold division" -- same as existing Championship class but underbody, brakes, and suspension are judged.

"Championship" -- status quo

"Driven"-- same as it used to be before recent leniencies and add the boot to the judging

"Enthusiast" -- what Driven class is now

For one thing, a class where underbody and suspension is judged would bring JCNA concours more in line with other clubs (who often sorta giggle at us, in case you didn't know)

For classes you might have...

All E-type
All XJS
All XK120-140-150
Saloons prior to XJ6
Saloons XJ6-later
Modern (anything less than 6 years old)
All other

Obviously the details would need refining but perhaps the basic idea has merit ?

I dunno.

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

( I moved Art post about regional vs north american to a separate thread)

i dont' see the need to expand C19... first we only have SIX cars competing for R or NA award this year, that alone means it doens't make a lot of sense to split the class.

Expanding it to recent cars (under 20years old) doens't make much sense either. The intent of C19 is to give a chance and to showcase orginal non restored Jaguars. Cars that are under 20 years old are rarely restored so why should someone have the choice to enter a car in a preservation class instead of its own class ?

Pascal

Lou, Doug, Dan and Mark,

Splitting C19:
These discussions are healthy and mostly productive, particularly when they occur well ahead of the AGM. As has been recognized, not all JCNA members, nor AGM delegates, have an interest in Concours; therefore, many AGM attendees may not be prepared nor qualified to give meaningful input.

Competition policy issues, raised at early AGM's, frequently prompted endless, inconclusive and divisive exchanges. In recognition of this recurring problem, a procedure was introduced and approved, at the 2001 AGM, (initially for Concours but, thereafter, also for Slalom and Rally) wherein all Concours Rule Book changes would be decided by a committee consisting of the JCNA Chief Judge and one Chief Judge from each of the 6 regions. Under the current directives, all proposed competition rule changes must be referred to the appropriate Concours, Rally or Slalom committee for review and an "up" or "down" vote.

The Judge's Concours Rules Committee (JCRC) was then formed and, since 2001, has initiated all AGM Concours rule changes based on committee member judging experience, protests, and observations and formal expressions of concern by JCNA members.

Concours rule changes, proposed by individuals from the floor of the AGM, will be referred to JCRC for research and processing.

JCRC will consider Lou's proposal to Split C19, Preservation Class, and will continue to monitor any related forum comments and opinion.
------------------------------------------------------------
The overall JCNA Concours program:
There are definite shortcomings in present method of determining the JCNA North American Concours Champions. JCRC's near term objective has been to improve the judging and scoring standardization within the framework of the existing program. As in our US major league sports organizations, there are league and regional divisions, within which leaders and champions are named; however, in all cases, the "Overall Champions" are only determined following a head-to-head meeting. Thus far, it has seemed impractical for JCNA to gather and compete all of the Regional concours winners at one location.

Any recommendations to consider major changes, to the overall JCNA judging and awards process, is beyond the scope of JCRC's charter and should be addressed to the Board of Directors, via the Concours Committee.

Thanks for your constructive comment.

Regards,
Dick Cavicke
Chair, JCNA, JCRC

Well, I agree to an extent, but the member in question happens to be our Concurs Chair and historian. As for the trophies, it may sound cheap, but one of our members is in the sign business and makes the trophies for us at cost. They are original and desirable. I have talked at the AGM about collapsing the older classes together. The fact is that attrition is making many of these class distinctions obsolete. It's like the front plate thing. I have for years tried to make the rest of the AGM, understand that for those of us in states without front plates, it can be difficult to find such a plate for show purposes only. As a judge, I will judge the fun guys differently than those who are going for regional or national points. As I judge all the Florida shows, I know who is doing what. If I don't I ask. I know a lot of judges don't do that, but again, it should be fun for all those who are participating. I have fun, even though I am competing for national points. JCOF has not only been into concurs, but we run two (this year three) slaloms plus rallies and tours. We pack as much as we can into the calendar, but then again we have members like Ginger Corda who push the club along. I don't slalom, for several reasons. I did autocross for many years, and my reaction times now just are not up to what I was used to doing, there are other reasons as well, but we are well off the topic. While concurs may not attract many participants, if it is done in a public setting will attract people and hopefully, new members. The Jaguar Club recognition among general Jaguar owners is not high. Many women are afraid to join, even though the majority of the active members in my club are female. I don't have a problem collapsing any of the classes even the newest ones (ie the XK8/XK), if it did not work out the way we anticipated.

Lou

My opinion would be different. Rather than "giving the jewel a new setting", I would abolish the monarchy.

Scrap the current structure of JCNA, and with it the concours program, and start again.

Daniel Thompson
XK Club representative
Jaguar Enthusiasts Club
Jaguar Owners Association - Montreal

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you, those numbers represent a significant reduction. It would be interesting to communicate with the 80 people who let their membership lapse and ask them a few simple questions to determine why. I don't think the answers will surprise anyone. I can tell you this though, adding a couple more concours classes won't change any of that though. I think the additional preservation classes are a good idea, and I am a very big supporter of preservation class cars and not a big fan of trailer queens or concours in general. I don't think local clubs or JCNA as a whole should be built around concours.

We are getting into an area of discussion that is beyond the scope of this topic. I'm going to move the discussion of falling membership/apathy/low turnout at Challenge Championships into another thread on the General JCNA discussion forum.

Thanks again,

Daniel Thompson
XK Club representative
Jaguar Enthusiasts Club
Jaguar Owners Association - Montreal

Well, about five years about we had about 150 members currently it is hovering around 70 members, that's way down to me. When I was President, I worked hard to recruit members and still we were down to 120. I went to the local Jag dealer and had him give out copies of our JagWire newsletter. I or one of my members were at all the car shows and activities around Florida, giving out cards and promoting the club. If I saw a Jag I did not recognize I left my card on the windshield, etc. I'm retired and active so it was not a problem, but that is not true for the vast majority of our members, so that effort has not been kept up.

Lou

"JCNA's greatest problem right now is membership"

"but my club, one of the larger clubs in JCNA, is way down on membership"

Lou,

Good points you have made above. Can you tell me what the membership numbers have been in your club over the last 5 years? I'd like to know what you qualify as "way down".

Thanks,

Daniel Thompson
XK Club representative
Jaguar Enthusiasts Club
Jaguar Owners Association - Montreal

First let me point out that I am the JCOF AGM Rep. I take that seriously. That means that I represent my membership on issues. A member asked me to proceed on this, so I did. As I have pointed out above, no matter what happens, my car would not qualify for the preservation classes. Secondly, JCNA's greatest problem right now is membership. Something I have been harping on for the last few years. How can we attract new members? Well, one way is to get people out to the concurs and have them win a trophy. I don't know what you pay for trophies in Arizona, but here in Florida we usually pay around ten to fifteen dollars for our original trophies (not stock). That is a small portion of the entry fee. I cannot speak of JCNA or even your club, but my club, one of the larger clubs in JCNA, is way down on membership. Sherman could tell us the national status, but I'd bet it's down nationally as well. The bottom line is we need more members. Publicity is hard when you have little or no budget to encourage new members. The local Jag dealers and independent repair shops do their bit, but most people just ignore the stuff handed to them. Yes, we are proposing two more classes (well three if you realize we will have to put the XF somewhere), but so what, will it produce extra members? I honestly don't know. It couldn't hurt. Do we have vastly underused classes, of course. The membership in the past has resisted collapsing the underutilized classes. We split my class last year because we were getting out four old stile XK8/Rs and four new stile XKs (there were no "R"s then). This year, I was the only one to show in my class (and in the competition none showed for either national or regional points). Part of that is the lack of membership. There are lots of these two classes being sold, but they are not joining the clubs. Maybe if we open up this C-19 class we could entice some new members, I don't know, but remember, this proposal not only opens new classes, but has a "revolver" clause that would force the winner back to championship or Drive class the following year. That is the feature that I think will attract new members. As for the numbers participating in national and region points, let me point out that many of our clubs are not within a reasonable distance to sister clubs (say three hours or less) in order to participate. Do some of these clubs have people who do, of course, but they are the truly dedicated. I would say that half or two thirds of my club will only show in our concurs despite having three other shows within that three hour limit (two are under two hours drive time), And Florida is unique. This would also help in judging. The way the class is now, you would have to judge anything for a Mark IV or earlier to an XJS. While many cars are registered ahead of time some are not. I would have no problem with the XJS, I would be a little shaky on the E-Types, but I have only seen one picture of a Mark IV, how would I judge that? Could the Chief Judge switch things at the last minute, maybe, but judges are in short supply these days as well. At the last concurs at at a sister club, we have five certified judges to their one judge. If things keep going the way they are we could be collapsing the clubs back to one Florida club and then you would see far fewer participants on the national or regional scene. This is why we need to expand and strengthen the program. I don't have a probable in collapsing some of the less used classes, but I am willing to bet the membership would vote it down, and they would be correct.

Lou

Actually we have one member with two XJ220s and another one with one and an XK15, neither one competes with them any more. Ian does show one or the other at our concours, but on display only. What we are trying is to have a revolving championship for each and to bring in cars that are a bit younger. At the Winter Park Concurs they have to be only 15 years old instead of our 20. BTW the pre-war preservation class was won by a 1923 Locomobile and the post-war was won by a 1947 Ford Woody Coupe (I never saw a woody coupe before). If we did not want to have the very modern cars then say have a must be ten or fifteen years old for the newest class. I'm open for suggestion.

Lou

Edited on 2008-04-01 18:34:36

How many XJ220s are out there? And yet there are 4 "S" Classes for modified and exotics.

The Concours "S" Classes reflect the importance of the model not volume of entrants. Is preseravtion of original cars less important than showing Jaguar exotica?

I think the sub-division of the C-19 class tries to redress the absudity of 1960's and 1980's cars competing against each other.

Preservation is an important goal and should be relfected in the extension of classes.

FYI: the C-19 vehicle shown at our local concours was this year and it was all alone.

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S, etc.

Remember this is preservation class. I doubt there are very many or any for that matter, pre-war preservation class cars. In the last five years, I have only seen two pre-war Jags shown and neither were preservation. What we are trying to do is make some classes for people to enter on a revolving basis. Even though my car is only a year old (and got three tens in D-19b), it would not qualify in preservation. I am sure that is quite true of a lot of cars. However, I have seems some XJSs that could qualify, but they are too new under current rules.This rule change was brought to me by one of my members with the consultation with someone from the JCRC (not sure who). The fact is C-19 is a very iffy class to begin with. I have seen cars that should not have been in C-19 (the paint job was better than mine on a Series III), but it is difficult to enforce. This is just a shell, we need to add to it, please make suggestions on how to improve this proposal.

Lou

There are only six cars that entered more than one event this year, in all of North America. It looks like similar few numbers for 2006 and 2005 as well. Having three classes for so few cars would be hard to justify. Also, what about pre-1947 cars? And what does 1987 and later really mean? How new of a car are you suggesting would be eligible for your proposed Class C19c?