Trailering Economics and the Driven Class

Said the President to his Board of Directors one day: ÔÇØIÔÇÖve got it! IÔÇÖve studied our By-Laws carefully, in particular, ARTICLE I, Section 1, and I know how we can best promote interest in motoring and at the same time promote enhanced driving standards and encourage skillful driving on the public highways ÔÇô all three part of its stated objects and purposes.ÔÇØ His Board of Directors cried: ÔÇ£How, Mr. President, tell us how?ÔÇØ And the President said: ÔÇ£WeÔÇÖll let everybody trailer their cars to all Concours events.ÔÇØ ÔÇ£Brilliant! Brilliant!ÔÇØ exclaimed his Board. Then the Delegates, those present and others by proxy, voted in the affirmative and the meeting was adjourned. And so it came to pass.

I agree with most of your post.
but 2 seasons ago I had two driven XJS's to enter one in D08A, and one in D08B. I was only able to make one show with both that year. Had the rules you suggested be in place my weekends would have cost me double the hotel costs and going on a ralley that was not of interest to me! I had access to a three car open trailer that year, but could not use it.
My next quest is two get a XK 120-140. So this rule is of some interest because I don't want a Trailer Queen. But I would like to get them both there.

Note on point system.
I understand it quite well being the JCNA National 2007 D08B 1st place winner by .00025 I think that a pretty narrow margin to win by.
Over the last couple years I would have been the NC regional Champ, if not for the screw up in my club number ( no SC13 JCNA Club) That's a whole new thread so I'll leave it at that.

As much fun as it is at the cocours, I think this year will be my last year in D08B. Time constraints are forcing me down to just 2 shows this year. and when I find that XK I'm sure that will be taking up a lot of the spare time also.

George

I've seen the monster before, And understand the Idea of participation increasing with Driven division. And I Agree with the LASt statement you made.
I am whole heartedly for driving my car to concours. If it was 20 years older I would do just the IJC & WJC shows because of distance.

What worries me is that, if the little Pewter plate is the most important part of each concours some one attends, It will kill the whole idea of the members to attend them in the first place.

I really think that some of the trailering goes on now, but it's taxing on the Cheif judge just to run a concours. If he has to follow everybody home it makes it impossible.

I was and still am impressed at the amount of XK's and early saloons that I get to see at Concours.
We all know that there is some of the members that don't show for the exact reason we are having this discussion.

But is it because of a petwer plate vs pewter goblet?

As you pointed out 30 years ago hardly anyone trailered. that would make a 1950's XK only 28 years old. AS a comparison how many 1980 XJS or XJ's do you see trailered into a concours now?

Maybe Doug was right in renaming the display only to Enthusiast divison.
That way at least we can still enjoy seeing the cars all cleaned up in Whatever state of disrepair they are in, whether it was driven , flatbedded, or pushed to the show.

I just enjoy seeing them out on the field.
There is a picture on the IJC webpage of the 2005 concours that is quite impressive , and to think they only had to give out a couple plates that day.

Daniel after being in JCNA for over 30 years I can tell you there is much more to it than simple rules. The driven division was instituted to INCREASE participation as more and more cars were on trailers (when I started almost no one trailered) so there was a need to even the playing field. Daniel there are some folks who will do anything to get a trophy--sad but true and those who have been here a while see the problem with this now. Please feel free to continue your conversation but the amount of traffic and the level this is being hashed out now should be an indicator that many more folk see it as a downhill slide. You might also want to read the purpose and object portion of the JCNA bi laws. No where in them does it talk about sharpening skills with a truck trailer rig!

I need to chime in here.
After reading the posts here and on the Jag-lovers site. I must admit that some very good arguements for both sides have been presented. I Drive my car to all concours,and on nice days in the spring, summer, and fall. It's far from a daily driver but not a trailer queen either.
Any one here can look up my scores and where I've been to concours and invite you to do so.

The idea that Peter might get "beaten up" is always been a factor at any concours.
My first concours was after a local car club event with over 300 cars, I sat 10 hours in 100 degree heat to be beaten out by VW GHIA.

The point is I met some other members of the IJC there. They had a Trailer Queen at the show and took First.

But that's how I got interested in showing my car(s) at concours. I had two XJS for a couple years and couldn't always get them to the shows together. Trailering would have been a plus, but it was not allowed.

Now you have to remember that driving a 30+ year old car isn't as reliable or easy to find repair shops, So trailering may bring in more participants to the driven class.

As for fairness.

I agree with Steve on this. I've been that poor SOB sweating and cleaning his car out there after a 2- 5 hour drive, and then 20 minutes before rags down. someone pulls in with a freshly cleaned car from just down the block, in a color that hides dirt and nicks, jumps out and takes his seat cover off and one floor mat out. throws it in the boot of his 15 year old driver with 8000 miles on it.

That's part of the game thought, my 96000 miles against his 8000 "Garage Miles".
at least he didn't trailer it!

So what's the big deal with trailering?

If the field of Play in " Driven" consists of the above situation why would it matter if someone trailered a Driver in?

granted my Worst concours Driven score is 9.719 with BLACK car.
I think that at that show we had a hail storm coming in and I drove home early to avoid it. while others Covered there cars with comforters from the hotel. Had we been there with trailers, we could have enjoyed one anothers company and a cocktail.

IT'S ABOUT POINTS, AND FREINDSHIPS!

not trailers and whining.

Pete,
Don't give up on us yet. Many of us agree with you as we also view "...the results of changing the rule governing the definition of a driven car as a step backwards." We hope to encourage the Board of Directors to reconsider its ruling so that membership in the JCNA and participation in concours events will be more welcoming for prospective and existing members alike.
Dave

Pete, your elequence is exceeded only by your common sense! Take your car (s) to a Concour, enter as 'Display Only', and compare your car (s) to others like it (them). Look at the things that YOU know are wrong with your car on the other cars. Ask the chief judge for a blank judging sheet, to see what is checked and how in your classes. Stick around for the awards, and see if your choice of the competition wins. Then you'll know how your car will stack up against the competition in whichever class, if you decide to enter. If you DO enter, remember that only three shows qualifies you for a regional award. If you don't, it's still fun being in "Display Only" catagory and having people admire your car!
Bob Wasson, JCNA #15265

Hi Peter,
I believe you could have your car judged and not have the score sent in to JCNA if you so wish, just mention it to the Chief Judge at the event,
I believe there is no rule against it,
Regards, Art

Hi Peter,
I do not think you are missing much, however whose idea it was to chanbge the original idea of just allowing Driven cars to be trailered to CC events if the distance was 350 miles or more certainly must be.
After about twenty years in JCNA this is quite the most dumb idea ever given approval at an AGM, proves again most attendees do not really understand what the different classes are all about.......
Sincerely, Art

Way to go, Pete!

Hey Folks,

I would also like to chime in on the trailering versus driving to cocours events. Last year I trailered my 1967 Mark II to the Central Coast Jag Club's event in San Luis Obispo and was very glad I did. My car is definately a driver and I have driven to several events, a few of which were 200+ miles one way. This trip was made in a driving rainstorm. Thank goodness I chose to trailer! I regularly go to Dixon (now in Woodland) and always drive my driver, a distance of about 185 miles one way for me. Trailering a car isn't going to drastically change the condition of the car barring any major raod rashes and chips in paint and I've had those too, that's just part of ownership. Sure beats a costly tow or a no show at all! I don't buy the economics agrument as most of the folks I see traveling to events at great distance aren't short on coin. I also can't blame a guy for trailering, after all some of these cars are worth $100,000 plus. Thats a pretty great investment to hammer on a long road trip ripe with possibilities for disaster. Final point is if you would like to trailer go for it. Personally half the fun for me is seeing folks double take as I rip by them at 90mph in a 40 year old car that some people NEVER get a chance to see!

Mike Glass
Sparks, NV
1967 MARK II (for sale)
1990 XJS V-12 Convertible (for sale)
1996 XJ6 VP

This from a somewhat different perspective. Last year, my coupe placed first in the JCNA North American Championship D06 Class with a score of 9.997. The second place winner had a score of 9.996. Only a thousanth of one point separated our two cars ÔÇô this after an entire season of spirited competition. Now I canÔÇÖt speak for the other driver but, if our positions had been reversed, I would be resting a whole lot easier knowing that my second place finish had been to a Jaguar that was driven to and from all Concours events (like mine, an average of 500 miles per trip) and not by some cross-dressing trailer queen masquerading as a driver.

Obviously, this type of rule change is devisive, at the very least. Just read the board. I fail to see how it can improve participation when it further divides the constituancy. And there are some, like me, who have reached the point that we simply don't give a s___t any more. I no longer judge, or will be juged. If I go to a show now, my four Jags are for "display only".
Bob Wasson, JCNA #15265

Just out of curiosity, Dave, why is this being debated on Jag-Lovers, not here? I don't bother with Jag-Lovers, other than to occasionally visit the E-type list. If there are JCNA concours issues to be aired, it should be done here, not on Jag-Lovers. But that's just my view.

I really think that many people are taking way to harsh a view of the change in the trailering rule for Driven Division. Rather than the proverbial act of "throwing the baby out with the bath water," maybe we could all just give it a try for the year. The rule is in place, and there is nothing the Board can do to suspend it now. Only the AGM can make changes in competition rules (read the JCNA By-laws). The Board is powerless to change a rule that was approved by the AGM.

Let's be patient, see how things go this year, and if the rules needs to be modified, JCRC can make a well thought out proposal for consideration at the next AGM. I'm sure if we all put our heads together, we can come up with something that will work for everyone.

Steve Weinstein
N.E. Regional Director

Edited on 2008-04-11 10:53:49

"Simply put, the Driven Class is for Drivers."

Please, don't even get me started. The "Driven" division is not for drivers. If it really catered to those who drive Jaguars on a daily basis, then it would allow any type of modification, since that is a fact of life for many cars.

The JCNA driven classes are about letting people participate in a concours who don't want to clean up under the hood or in the trunk, and at the same time they are allowed a few minor deviations from original. For example, you can use chrome versions of the OEM wheels....big freakin' deal. Real 'drivers' often have aftermarket wheels and therefore can't participate in the JCNA "Driven" divsion w/o a huge deduction making them wholly uncompetitive. This is just one example of how JCNA discriminates against real daily drivers.

JCNA Driven is nothing more that a slightly watered down Champion division. The vast majority of the cars in Driven are far from daily drivers...many are just as pampered as Champion division cars. The division should really be called "Champion class cars with very minor non originality allowances and you don't have to clean the messy engine compartment" division.

There should be a real Driven divsion, but it should allow any mods to make the car a daily driver.

Steve,

Dick Cavicke's most recent posting on the Jag-Lovers Concours forum provides additional insight as to what the original trailering proposal was at the AGM, the role the JCRC, and the vote that resulted in this ruling.

My understanding is that Jerry Ellison's proposal spoke only to trailering for Driven Class vehicles to Challenge Championship or Regional events. There were several caveats, however: 1) the vehicle must be at least 30 years old; 2) the participant must have a recent history of Driven Division competition; and 3) the participant must certify that the event is more than 400 miles from where the vehicle is normally garaged." I have no problem with that. Instead, the BOD issued an expansive ruling that allows all Driven Class participants to trailer their vehicles regardless of the distance. I do have a problem with that but not for the reasons you suggest.

This is not about trophies or winning and losing. IÔÇÖve had my share of both. This is an issue that goes to the very essence of the Driven Class: those of us who love our cars and love to drive them. Simply put, the Driven Class is for Drivers. By their ruling, the BOD has removed an important distinction between the Champion and Driven Classes. It is a distinction that we of the Driven Class cherish dearly.

I believe this is going to be a major issue for many Clubs as the 2008 Concours season gets under way. The BOD should suspend the change for now as Dick suggests, and reconsider it at the 2009 AGM? I donÔÇÖt see how the BOD can hope to increase participation at JCNA sanctioned events by alienating its membership.

Dave Maupin
Taylorsville, NC
1976 XJ 5.3C

Edited on 2008-04-10 18:11:02

I finally had a chance to view the various threads that have developed about trailering in Driven class. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The Board of Directors is being innundated with emails from a number of members decrying this change, some of them with some rather vitriolic remarks aimed at the Board members and what happened at the AGM.

First, let me say that none of us on the Board intended this to be a "stake in the heart" of the Driven class, as several people have suggested. Nor did we intend for two driven classes to be created, one for "trailer queens" and one for "true" driven cars. Rather, it was viewed as a way of increasing participation by people who live a distance from club concours sites, particularly in parts of the country where concours are few and far between, or places like high density urban areas where driving an old car on beat-up and congested roads is literally like taking your life in your hands. And remember, it was overwhelmingly supported by the delegates at the AGM; it was not just the Board that thought this was a good idea.

Steve Gallant's comments, in my opinion, are right on point. Below is a response I made to one of the many heated emails that were directed at the Board. Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail, people will not cut off their noses to spite their face by abandoning concours all together, and that we can give the change a try for a year and see how it works. It can always come back before the AGM again next year, if it proves to have been a bad idea.

***********************************************
Dear [JCNA Member],

Unfortunately, this goes in the catagory of "you can't please all of the people all of the time." The objections and concerns you voice about trailering were raised at the AGM and considered by those present and voting. However, the countervailing argument -- that allowing trailering will facilitate more participation and allow those travelling long distances to attend events they might not otherwise -- appeared to win the day, and a substantial majority of delegates voted to make this change.

Here is the problem in a nutshell -- JCNA covers all of North America, and for many events or in many areas, participants must travel large distances to get to a concours event. In some cases, people want to bring more than one car to an event, such as the Challenge Championship, and the only way to do that is by trailering the cars. Last summer, I had seriously considered trailering my car from New Jersey to Indianapolis for several reasons. First, I had to bring the timing equipment to Indy in order to run the slalom. Second, I had to make an important stop in Columbus, Ohio on my way back. Third, I just didn't want to deal with the mid-summer heat in the mid-West in an E-type. I ended up driving the E-type, but had I trailered it, I would have been precluded from participating in the concours Driven division, even though I would have driven the car in the rally, the slalom and in and around Indy for several days before the concours.

In effect, this is not much different that the situation that arises when someone lives close to a concours venue and others travel a distance to get there. The person who lives close has an advantage. He can clean his car at home and drive just a short distance to the concours site, while those from out of town must deal with the road dirt that accumulates during a drive. Should we, perhaps, require that all participants in driven class drive their cars at least 10 or 25 or 50 miles immediately before a concours and NOT allow anyone to then clean their driven cars, and assume that road dirt is a part of being in driven class? Sound silly? That's exactly what the Rolls Royce club does. You must drive your Rolls at least 50 miles before putting it on the concours field, and cars are marked down if they are TOO clean.

Unfortunately, there is no one rule that will satisfy everyone. Let's see how things go this year and see if it really is an issue. Please feel free to report your observations of how the change in rules does or does not effect the driven division this year to the JCRC for their consideration. Any proposal to change the rule will have to come to the AGM through them.

Best regards,
Steve Weinstein
Northeast Regional Director

I think this whole issue is a lot about nothing.

Above, you make the point that "Only the Champion Class trailered their vehicles." I don't know what concours you have attended, but I've never seen more than a handful (if that) of trailers being used by the cars in the Champion classes. Most of the participants drove their cars to the event. I never hear anyone complaining how unfair this situation is, with some Champion class cars being trailered and the majority not.

How is this different for the Driven division? You want a trailer, get one. If you don't...then don't. I drive 5 miles from my house to a concours and some poor bastard has to drive 300 miles. I clean my car in the comfort of my air conditioned garage before I leave my house, the 'poor bastard' is sweating bullets in 90 degree heat with 90% humidity trying to clean 300 miles of grime off his car. Tell me, who has the advantage? Why is it fair for me to enter Driven when I didn't really have to 'drive' to get to the concours? That's what makes this whole argument ridiculous.

Trailering is an option, that's all it is. I would like to go to a CC event someday, but they are generally too far. I'm not about to put that many miles on my car, even though it is a 'driver'. I'll drive up to a couple hundred miles one way for an event, but not more than that. If I had a trailer, then I'd be much more likely to make a longer distance event. For me, it's about damage, breakdowns, and mileage, not cleanliness. Twice I drove to an event about 150 miles away and both times my car ended up on a flatbed for the trip home. Not something I'd like to repeat.

I have no problem with letting people trailer their car, no matter what division they want to enter.