Two questions to Judges of Concours d'Elegance everts

Mr. Jenkins - Thank you for your insight.

Chad,

It's very difficult to answer your questions without further clarification. I would answer "no" to both.

I have seen restorers give different rates for different levels of restoration. For instance, they may restore a car by giving it a medium quality paint job by using lower quality materials and just masking off the chrome and not removing the glass and reupholstering the seats with vinyl rather than leather which is how the car came from the factory. To me that would be a "restoration" but not a "concours restoration." That restoration would be more than adequate for someone who wants to drive the car and enter it in informal car shows. It would look nice and turn heads BUT probably would not be able to compete in a "concours" format.

As far as your example of a $50K budget for an XKE, it depends on how far "gone" the car is. If it needs extensive chrome and sheet metal work and a complete interior, then for $50K, you could get a decent restoration but I don't think it would be "concours" quality. That would probably be more like $100K minimum. A "concours" quality restoration on just the interior would run you at least $10-$15K. For instance, you could find seat "kits" but more likely than not, the finished interior would not be anywhere near as good if you paid someone considerably more to custom make the seat covers and replace all of the leather in the interior.

To me, a "concours" quality restoration on an E Type is where you have someone like Stew Jones who would take the body shell, set it up on his custom rotisserie and put far more time (and money) into it than if you just took it to a local auto body shop where they would charge you $3-$5K to paint the entire car without taking it apart.

I don't know if I answered your questions but I hope it helps.

"Concours quality" is highly subjective, much like the term "restoration"....which is so abused and over-used as to be almost meaningless nowadays.

I must say that the nature of your questioning sounds as though you are prepping for a lawsuit !

Cheers
DD

stevo - Bare bones - What I really want to know.

1) Is "consours quality" ever used by JCNA - I take it your answer is no.

2) Is "concours quality" a judging term used by JCNA Judges - I take it your answer is no.

"In other words. could one hold out his restored vehicle as "concours quality" wiithout ever entering a JCNA event?"

Of course, why not? The quality is an intrinsic feature, not added on by judging.

You take the score sheet and go thru the vehicle, it is as simple as that. Look, most of the judges are not experts by any means. They can judge cleanliness and things of that nature, but model specific items are not so easy. It takes a real expert on a model to judge originality. And the majority of restorers, if they are model specific, are darn well more knowledgeable than most judges gatherd together for a local JCNA concours.

When someone says 'concours quality' to me, I'm thinking of Pebble Beach quality, not JCNA quality. Honestly, some stuff gets missed in judging, that's the nature of things. A car at one show might score 100 and at another a 99.5, but it does give you some idea of the 'quality' of the car, and that's about it.

You seem to be asking the same question over and over. Why don't you get to the bottom line and ask what you REALLY want to know.

Stevo - thanks for the clarification. I just took the 100 points from Mr. Steveson's thread as I am a novice and still learning.
But, I do note the JCNA Score Summary Scoresheet lists 1000 as the Max minus deductions for a total gross score. then for the Champion Division - the gross is divided by 10 and the Driven Division the gross is divided by 100. So, if the max of 1000 is minus 10 deduction points, the 990 amount needs to be divided by 10 which equals 99 for a Net Score. Right?

Of course, if the vehicle was in the Driven Division, the 990 would be divided by 100 and it would result in 9.9 Net - right?

Stevo - Again thank you - Every little bit helps. I would like your assistance on a similar matter. "Concours Quality " What does that term mean to you? Does the JCNA ever use that term in an official manner or in Judging of JCNA events? Additionally, in your opinion, could a vehicle be considered "concours quality" without ever being judged in JCNA event.
In other words. could one hold out his restored vehicle as "concours quality" wiithout ever entering a JCNA event? Chad. PS: Have you been or are you a JCNA Judge Thanks again.

FYI, the JCNA scoring system is based on 1000.0 points, not 100. A car receiving a mid 90s score is not even remotely competitive and in no way is 'concours quality'. Since fractions of a point are deducted, a real concours quality car needs a score of at least 99.5. This score means that in total 5 points have been deducted, which is actually a lot for a top notch car.

So, the point is that a 99.5 car and a 95.0 are VASTLY different with resepct to concours quality (one is and one isn't)

Mr. Robert Steveson. Thank you very much for your responses. I have a slight follow-up if I may. Does JCNA ever use the term "concours quality" in an official or accepted manner or in JCNA Judging? I fully understand that an individual owner or commercial restorer may proclaim a vehicle to be of concours qualiity or concours condition, yet unless his vehicle has scored highly (mid-to high 90's) at a JCNA event , such claim to me would be puffing, boasting or wishful fancy.

Lastly, you mention the expense of restoring a vehicle to concours condition. As a layman person with specilaized knowledge, what would be your expection of a restoration of a 1963 XKE Jaguar with a budget of $50,000?
Thank you so much.

Chad, In answer to your questions,
1 Concours quality will mean different things to different folks. To me it would mean upwards of a 99.95 score and anyone who assumes that any restoration will be of this quality is kidding themselves unless they are paying top dollar to someone who basically specializes in whatever model Jag that they have. As we, my son and I, do 100% of the work I know first hand the amount of time and money is involved in a high point restoration.
2 Yes I do judge and have been the Chief Judge for the Michigan club for the past 21 years.
3 Yes there have been 100 point scores and a perfect score at one event does not mean that it will be repeated at the next, as all of the judges are volunteers and the knowledge of a particular model can and does vary from show to show.

Hopefully, the judging is the same at every event, my score does not carry over, each event is separate and usually judged by different judges (they were in my case). The points are not a whim, they are based on deviation from the factory ideal, and other points are based on cleanliness and scratches etc. on the car. I do work on it, but I also have a person come and clean it as well. At my age and health, I can no longer do some of the work. IE I have the car detailed before I leave for a show. I drive to the show. If they have someone there, I will let them clean it up otherwise it do it. The next morning I get up around sunrise (so I can see) and clean the car again, vacuum it and spray detail spray on it before the event. As a judge I usually, have a lot less time to fix up my car on the day of the event than regular entrants.

Mr. Louis Kairys - Thank you very much. One additional inquiry if I may. Would a perfect score at one JCNA event automatically garner a similar score at another JCNA. event. Would your expect your 07 XK, a prize wiinner in a Florida show, place as high in the Pacific Coast JCNA events. Is the judging standard at all JCNA events or are points added or deducted ever so slightly to the particular whims of the Judges? I ask this in all respect.
Lastly, do you work on your XK yourself?

I am a judge (and train judges as well). I have never herd of that term in JCNA context. I use the standard of the factory assembly ideal when looking at cars. Yes there were five cars that had perfect scores in the NA winners. Two were from my club. Mike Kruel's '99 XK8 (C-16a (a tie BTW)) and my '07 XK (in D-9b) both cars are regularly driven.

Robert, I tend to agree with you. What would be your take of a restorer who promises or infers a "Concours quality" restoration or an owner who assumes or takes for garnted the repairs will be done to a " concours quality" standand or expectation?
Robert, have you ever been a Coucours Judge? - Lastly, are there Jaguars rated at the max of 100 points within JCNA Concours d'Elegance everts ?

Thank very much for the info. This type of research is a lot of notepad investigation. LOL

Chad, I've been involved in numerous JCNA Concours over the years and have never heard the term Concours quality used . Sounds more like an used car advertising term to me.