Driven Class Trailering

Yet, they are "driven", without certain areas being judged, correct?
Local club member explained that to me a while back.
In the Ford group, it was "touring" class, even less attention, yet judged.

I understand the differences.
I know what concours folks go through, been there, done that, and I specifically did not address that part of the hobby.

If the "driven" class is to be driven (not trailered) to events, does the new rule not simply elevate the "driven" class further up into the judging?
Is there to be a new section or class for those who actually do with the vehicles what they were designed to do, i.e. drive them?

I can share personal experiences that getting the cars onto the road is really what it's about.
Note the words "personal experiences".

I mean, the ACD Club, probably trailers only, but I don't know......

I tried and tried to contact you, can't find your listing anywhere.
I was going to call yesterday.

"My references are about the DRIVEN class, and while I have not yet finished reading all the comments about it posted herein, I have no isues with concours cars, different bag of worms."

"I am NOT discussing points cars, rather driven, and the initial wording (over 400 miles, over 30 years old) seemed okay."
______________________________________________________________________

O.C.

Not sure, but there may be some confusion here. The "Driven Class" we are talking about is a division of the JCNA Concours. They are "points cars" just like Championship division.

Or maybe I misunderstood what you are referring to.

Cheers
DD

We just pick on them, hence the "candy cars" term, specifically expounded upon with the DRIVEN Mercury in the snowstorm.

I even have mounted studs for my 50, and chains, and have used both.

My references are about the DRIVEN class, and while I have not yet finished reading all the comments about it posted herein, I have no isues with concours cars, different bag of worms.

We caught folks trailering driven cars, too, in other clubs, but it didn't make much difference.

I am NOT discussing points cars, rather driven, and the initial wording (over 400 miles, over 30 years old) seemed okay.

Time will tell.

I had a Model "A" for several years.
Now, there is a car approaching 80 years old and we drove it all over.

If you have a "driven" car and don't want to drive it, what's the point?

I was always puzzled that I never saw vintage Jags on the road, maybe one a year.
I see more Studebakers than Jags.

Patrick- Never said that, "my way or the highway".
All I am doing is trying to get up to speed on this issue.
Hey, in the North West, you wait for a sunny day to drive, you may wait a long time.
Still raining today.

Please point out what I said that you don't agree with from my prior posts, and please quote me.

Thanks.

Edited on 2008-06-08 10:14:12

O.C.

Although the majority of those expressing an opinion seem to be stongly against the new rule for philosophical reasons...and I count myself among them.....there's some question, in my mind at least, as to how much real-world difference it will actually make.

Its unlikely that Driven Class will suddenly be inundated with trailered cars, "queens" or otherwise, for a variety of reasons....not the least of which is that most simply enjoying driving their Jags.

What remains to be seen is the number of trailered Championship cars dropping down to Driven Class where they could conceievably run away with the show, so to speak. This remains a bit of a worry but, again, somehow I just don't see it happening....at least not very often.

It might make you feel a little better to know that a great many....the majority, I'd say.... Championship Class cars are driven, not trailered, to events. In fact, I'd like to know what percentage of concours cars are trailered to begin with.....it never seems like that many to me.

I remain against the rule on the basis of it violating the spirit of driven class. Will it really make a difference? I sorta doubt it.

As an aside, its hard to tell if your remarks about "candy cars" and driving in the weather are intended as just a bit of teasing, or if they indicate an outright disdainful opinion of those who cherish their cars enough to worry about that sort of thing. The former is common and usually received with no hard feelings. The latter really isn't called for, IMHO. There are many ways to enjoy Jaguars, and room for all them within JCNA....and JDRC/NWA.

Just my 2-cents on that.

Cheers

Great attitude Crumudgeon....your way or the highway, huh?! What a great asset you will be to JCNA and your local club. I don't think you will be missed.

Patrick

I am just recently joined.
I am also just recently a Jag owner, after waiting 43 years.
I sent those 43 years restoring and DRIVING, as in DAILY, Flathead Fords.
My "other car" is a 1950 Tudor, with half a million miles, owned for over 38 years.
I did concours events, did judging, know first hand even in that organization how judging is done and how judges act.
They are himan, and their observation is based upon what they see and how they see it.

That said, I had decided 20 years ago I would never enter a consours for judging again.

I joined up with this organization as it had a "driven" class, now it seems we really do not.
Trailer Queens.

In the North West we call the "Candy Cars", as they melt in the rain.

I remember leading a 3-pass tour one fall (did it every year for about 10 years), and looking out the back window as we crested the old Snoqualmie Pass 2-lane switchback, as it started to snow, and seeing the Merc behind us, folks in a PANIC as that car hadn't been even WET in 30 years!

Heck, I drive my MKII to Starbux every morning!

So, you guys gonna fix this trailer rule or not?

Ah, the post deleter speaks up! Thanks for contributing!

Gee, and I thought this was just about over. Let me get some popcorn ready. :-)

Edited on 2008-04-26 9:28:22

Edited on 2008-04-26 9:26:43

How many times have we heard "This is my LAST post" from quite a few people only to have them come back and whine, cry and stir the pot again, again and again? Very pathetic and extremely immature.

Fulton and Whitehead can't seem to find anything wrong with their rude, obnoxious and offending posts and when they are called out about it, they respond with yet more offensive posts. They refuse to recognize or take responsibility for their bad behavior and point the finger at other people. Unlike Whitehead, I'm not demanding apologies from them or anyone, their actions and attitudes speak for themselves. Another thing that cracks me up are the people who DON'T think before they post then go back and delete their posts because they don't have the backbone to stand behind their original wrong and offensive words. Many forums won't allow that at all and they shouldn't.

Fulton, go back and look at my very first post here. There was absolutely NOTHING offensive, rude or wrong with it yet you immediately responded to me in an ignorant and unprofessional manner "No offense, but you need to read the rules" to be exact. And based on your past performance on this site, had someone said that to you in the same situation, you would have lost your temper and gone into another one of your childish rants. To use your exact words, it seems like you are trying to stir things up and have no respect for the opinions of others. No offense, but you really need to look at your own behavior before you start criticizing others.

Same with Whitehead, his first post here (to use Fulton's words) seems like he was trying to stir things up and has no respect for the opinions of others. He was wrong and I was the only one that pointed that out to him. Anyone with any sense of remorse who isn't an oversensitive baby would have been able to realize their bad behavior and immediately rectified the situation and I would have too but that's not the kind of guy Whithead is. He's the kind of guy that walks into a room, shoots his mouth off and starts throwing punches and when someone slaps him in the back of the head, he immediately demands an apology! Brilliant!

Tell ya what, I'll use his thought process and apologize:

I'M SORRY to everyone on this forum for my initial response to you Keith but you are still a jerk and totally deserved it because you are obnoxious, offensive and have no respect for other's whose opinions differ from yours. See that? I apologized and it was sincere too! And if you ever want to sell BLEW CAT, just let me know and we can talk price!

So when the both of you act like jerks, chances are very good that someone is going to push back and call you on it, and yeah, odds are pretty darn good that you'll be met with a similar level of obnoxiousness and offensive tone that YOU set yourself. A good way to avoid future messes like this is for the both of you and others here to THINK before you post.

can someone pass me some 16P nails to close the lid on this coffin.

Keith,
Well said. I have been trying to restrain myself from all the insulting verbage from you know who. Seems like this guy is just trying to stir things up and has no respect for the opinions of others. Ginger asked us to tone this down in an earlier post and I agree. I have more respect for her than anyone in JCNA and I will honor her request. I'm out of here! Just so that EVERYONE understands, this is not a JOKE. I am serious. This is my LAST POST on this topic.
Mark( I mean Mike)

OK - This will be my FINAL post to this thread NO MATTER WHO reponds as well as NO MATTER WHAT the response. *

I wish to clarify one thing for William.

Sir Jenkins, my apology was to everyone else. I apologized to them and provided an explanation. While I offered an Explanation it was not offered as an Excuse. I was wrong. Period.

William, you do not EVER have to apologize to me. However, someone many posts ago suggested that you apologize to the many you have offended in this thread. Should you see fit to apologize to the OTHERS you have insulted I will graciously extend my apology to YOU at that time.

* Everyone - Allow me to modify my first line of this post. If William should choose to extend a SINCERE apology to those others he has offended I WILL make one more post to apologize to him.

Otherwise - I'll stick to posting on other threads/topics. My apologies to all of you again for the need to make this one additional post.

Edited on 2008-04-25 20:17:18

Edited on 2008-04-25 20:04:25

Keith, your "apology" is essentially meaningless and I'll explain why:

Here's a real apology, "I'm sorry."
Here's an insincere, hollow apology complete with an excuse that means nothing, "I'm sorry but you're still an a-hole."

The second example is exactly what you did with your so-called "apology" here. Your first post in this topic here was an obnoxious direct shot at people who were posting and it's not too hard to tell it was mostly directed at me. You are wrong when you say that I "dragged (you) down to the other gentleman's level by his abusive taunts and insults toward myself." How could I possibly have done that if you had never posted in the thread yet? Since you hadn't posted in the thread, it's impossible for me to have taunted and insulted you before you got here! You came in here with an obnoxious post and I called you on it immediately and you deserved it.

Now if you've realized that you should apologize then that's great but an apology with conditions and another backhanded slap is not an apology at all.

Your first and second sentences were GREAT, if you had left it at that, I would be the first to apologize directly to you but you completely blew your whole apology with the third sentence, I can't honestly believe your apology is sincere when worded like that.

I hope some cyber-hand shakes will flow from Whited's apology which is appreciated. I hope for reconcilliation and repproachment amongst us, without dwelling on fault, will flow too.

D Lokun

Yeah, I got waylaid in my early posts and decided to pull 'em. Glad I did.

While a cyber hand-shake is probably a remote possibility I do offer an apology to those participating in and reading this thread.

When I first read Ginger's post I immediately realized that her train of thought and sentiments, while expressed in very different words, were very close to mine when I made my original posts to this thread on April 19th & 20th.

Unfortunately, I allowed myself to be dragged down to the other gentleman's level by his abusive taunts and insults toward myself as well as many others who have posted to this thread. That does not excuse me for allowing it to happen and I regret responding on that level.

I offer sincere apologies to all.

"Our wait and see attitude will = a lock-in of the new rule" ... There was some discussion (amongst others) about re-opening and/or invalidating the new rule and I only pointing out that this unlikely action would be catagorically ruled out with after the first show to preserve the continuity (level playing field) of the national scoring system.

I also believe this rule topic is now beaten to death - the rule is the law.

I hope a cyber hand-shake will flow from Ginger's comments.

Lokun

"Gentlemen" .....*nothing* is gained by continuing these abusive, personal attacks. If there is a shred of honor that you wish to preserve, think about how you are portraying yourselves to all who read these childish, distasteful squabbles.

I implore you to lift yourselves up to a level of common decency, and speak to each other with mutual respect. We all deserve that much.

It's time to return to civility and act like grown men, using MANNERS and thoughtful conversation to advance your ideas and concerns. Be constructive, and "manage" the anger, please.

Kyle Whithead, what do you mean I have trouble with names?

I knew you'd have some explanation - - Sounds like a "Chucklehead Defense" to me . . . . .

By the way - - it's Whited, not Whitehead. You DO seem to have trouble with names . . .

But we're almost to a new record number of posts!
One more should do it - Lucky You!

Probably the only record you've ever broken. That must be why you've made so many posts.

Now you can stop!

I only jumped back in to do my small part at breaking the old record - - certainly not because I considered you a worthy opponent for a duel of words.

Good Night! I'm gone!!!!!!

No Mr. Whitehead, the term "chucklehead" is something I've heard many of my friends from the mid-west and a term I heard only for the first time about two years ago. This is different from "knucklehead" and "nyuk, nyuk" is used and has been used by many people. I never watch "The Three Stooges" and know almost next to nothing about any of their lines so you are being an idiot and made a completely wrong assumption which is nothing new for you.

William

In the first post in which you used the term "Chucklehead" you closed with:
"Nyuk, nuyk, nyuk.... "

Here's a 'cut & paste':

"My money is still on Fulton being dead serious with his plan to discriminate against those who show in Driven and trailer their cars, "chucklehead" defense notwithstanding.

Sigend,

The funny ole lighthearted, jokester and stand-up comedian from the JCSNE who was just joshin' you fun-lovin' jokesters all along!

Nyuk, nuyk, nyuk.... "

Since you used both in the same post I assume your trying to use the old Three Stooges routine . . . . it's Knucklehead not chucklehead. KNUCKLEHEAD!!

Only two more posts and we've got a NEW record!!!

Mark, it's "bippy" not "bibby" if you're trying to use the Rowan & Martin routine.

So you're using the chucklehead defense now huh?

Har, har, har, you funny guy!!

William,
Bye the way, my name is Mike, not Mark.
I wish I would have posted my "You bet your sweet bibby" remark on April 1st. But then again, you obviously have no sense of humor and you still wouldn't have gotten it. It's been fun reading your obusive remarks and I have had many laughs. I hope it was fun for you too!
Mike

Edited on 2008-04-24 20:17:48

Steve Weinstein, since you're one of my Regional Directors, I'd like your thoughts on the question I've asked Stew Cleave and Mark Fulton.

Is it acceptable for a judge to have his own set of "unwritten rules" and a Chief Judge to instruct judges at his judges school to incorporate "unwritten rules" when judging entrants cars?

If you haven't weeded through this entire thread, I'll summarize briefly for you, Mark Fulton and Stew Cleave don't like the new rule change and their personal feelings are that people in driven class should not be allowed to trailer their cars to a concours even though the rules now allow that.

To quote Mr. Fulton:
"When judging driven division cars, I will now make it a point to ask the owner if he drove or trailered his car. Will it make a difference ? You bet your sweet Bibby(sic) it will!
Mike

Which was followed up by this comment from Stew Cleave (a "Chief Judge" mind you):
"Mike ,
Your approach has got to be the best solution I've seen so far and you can bet your sweet bibby (sic) that it will be taught at JOCO's Judges' School on the 27th of April in at MacTarnahan's in NW Portland starting at Noon. Sometimes the unwritten rules are the best rules!"

Again Steve, as a Regional Director and a leader of the JCNA, is this acceptable behavior for JCNA judges?

I look forward to your response.

Steve Gallant wrote:

"I've participated in both Driven and Champion classes over several years, and I never even knew that you couldn't trailer your Driven class car. I assumed trailering, as applied to Champion class cars, meant droping off the car on the show field (or right next to it). I would never have even thought that trailering my Driven car cross country and parking it at my hotel would be remotely in violation of a no trailering rule for Driven class."

Stevo,

Frankly, I thought exactly the same thing. It wasn't until this issue came up during the Board meeting and it was reported that several people who trailered cars to the CC in Indy were given a hard time and told they could not compete in Driven Class that I became aware of this. I think that was, in large part, why a majority of the Board members and by a two to one margin the delegates to the AGM voted to amend the rule. I know that some folks have reacted rather violently to the change, but it seemed the logical way a the time to fix the apparently uneven application of the rule in Driven Class.

Just to report, the Board has been discussing this issue for the past several weeks and we have been consulting with JCRC. Hopefully, we will reach some form of resolution soon. But also, hopefully, whatever the outcome, those displeased with the ultimate conclusion will work within the system if they believe further changes are needed and not go into open revolt. That would not be good for anyone involved in concours, the local clubs or JCNA as a whole.

Steve Weinstein
Northeast RD and GC

p.s. I think we are rapidly on our way to breaking the longest-thread record, by a long shot.
I

"Our wait and see attitude will = a lock-in of the new rule"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. I thought it was ** already ** locked in. No ?

"This is really a lot about nothing"

Maybe, maybe not. There's really two issues. Although I think the new rule violates the spirit of driven class I myself have begun questioning the actual real world impact of the change. Beyond that, though, there's the manner in which the change came about....and I think that has a lot to do with the present unrest.

Cheers
DD

"In Transit Damage" holds the JCNA record at 105 posts ... DL

I love this never-ending thread !!

This is really a lot about nothing. Do you really think that now that trailering is OK, that Driven class participants are going to rush out and buy a trailer? C'mon, be realistic. Those in Driven who wanted to trailer their cars in the past, probably did, rules or no rules. And those who aren't interested in trailering wouldn't do so now just because it is legal.

Like I've noted before, even in Champion classes, very few cars are trailered. And no one thinks that's 'unfair' (or at least they haven't voiced it). Lastly, do you think the vast majority of Driven class participants even look at these rule revsions?

I've participated in both Driven and Champion classes over several years, and I never even knew that you couldn't trailer your Driven class car. I assumed trailering, as applied to Champion class cars, meant droping off the car on the show field (or right next to it). I would never have even thought that trailering my Driven car cross country and parking it at my hotel would be remotely in violation of a no trailering rule for Driven class.

Any way, a lot about nothing.

Our wait and see attitude will = a lock-in of the new rule.

Regards,

D Lokun

We'll have to wait-n-see what the real world results are. You may very well be right----it could be that very few will take advantge of the new rule and the whole thing may amount to nothing more than a hill of beans.

I think we all agree, though, that the rule change seems to have been a sneaky thing, giving a clandestine tinge to those involved. That, perhaps more than the rule change itself, it adding greatly to the issue.

I've never known Stew to be anything but fair so I'm not really worried about his remarks. Sometimes, when aggravated, we dramatize things a bit......such as comparing those involved to murderous racists :-)

Cheers
DD

The more I think about it, I really don't have a problem with the new rule change at all. I highly doubt that more than a handful of people will even utilize the new rule and trailer their cars and enter them in driven class.

The bigger concern is will judges with predetermined prejudices and biases apply "unwritten rules" as Mark Fulton and Stew Cleave said they would? What's very unfortunate is that quite a few of the rest of you who are whining about the new rule change appear to be condoning Cleave and Fulton's outrageous behavior and giving it tacit approval with your complete silence on the subject.

It reminds me of the racists who assault and kill people just because of the color of their skin when they've done nothing wrong.

Mark,
Thank you for your thoughtful and well reasoned comments on this important topic to all Drivers. Like you I will hope for the best.

Well, it looks like this conversation is winding down, at least until the Jaguar Journal announces the decision to a disbelieving membership. I've made all the points I wanted to make, asked all the questions I wanted to ask, and made all the suggestions I felt would resolve the matter.

As I await word from the BoD, I'm going to retire to the life of a typical JCNA member -- laid back and uninvolved. I spent a lot of time trying to improve things both for JCNA and JCCA, but events at both levels seem to have taken the clubs in the opposite direction.

I appreciate all of you who waxed so eloquently on the subject. I'll continue monitoring the conversation and hope for the best.

If I trailer it and show it in Driven class will you discriminate against me because of your personal feelings that you don't think it's a fair rule?

Mr. Jenkins,
I will be at the Gatlinburg Concours in May. Please bring your car. I would love to judge it!

Peter:

I can only go by what you wrote in your post(s) in this thread. For all I know, you're an okay car guy and Jaguar enthusiast. If I mis-read you, then my apologies. However, in your post that got me ticked, please re-read your 5th paragraph.

Intentionally or not, you slammed those of us who (a) own Champ-level cars, and (b) prefer to cart our Jaguars long distances via enclosed trailers. And you insinuate that we are not among the set of guys that regularly get our hands greasy with maintenace or repairs, and that we are not true enthusiasts.

As mentioned, I have been a member of JCNA (and the Houston chapter) since the late 70's or early 80's. I too would go to great lengths to cart my E-Type to the show as a "work in progress" display. I am not a rich man, and therefore had to save for years to get the funds to have the car painted, or to buy a set of chrome wire wheels and Dunlop tires, or to afford the upholstery kit. All the while, I did my yeoman duty with the club; sometimes as president, sometimes as Membership, or any number of duties in order to help to keep the club alive. These members are my best friends.

Yes, I have won my share of awards in the past, but these days I usually just display the car w/o judging, but you have to admit that there is a streak in all of us that wants to COMPETE.
That is sometimes a difficult urge to put away. But I do not rope off my car, nor do I worry too much about people touching the car as fingerprints are easily removed. But you do have to watch out for the 18 year old with keys in his hand. Not everyone is trust-worthy as I would like them to be. It is a different world to be sure. (Yes, I did at one time put a canopy over my car in 104 degrees heat at a show was the weatherstrip adhesive was beginning to let go. And yes, my friends gave me a hard time about it).

I respect almost anyone who ones and maintains a Jagaur, classic or not. I like the driven as well as the champ cars. I understand the urge to drive these fantastic machines, and I will defend anyone's right to do so as long as they keep their car well-maintained. I even appreciate the un-restored rust-buckets that show up, and marvel at the originality of them.
Regardless of driven or champ, we all like to show our rides to the viewing public, although many don't have a clue as to what make or model they are looking at. I do not bring or display my car for the sake of the other entrants on the field, as quite frankly, they've seen it far too many times before. But they are always appreciative that I go to the trouble to bring the car. All of them know me well enough that I do not strut a "see what I've got" attitude.

After I got out of the US Navy in the mid-seventies, my E-Type was in very poor condition. In fact, one of the front rails had rusted through under the battery. To fix this problem required an almost complete disassembly of the car. And the further you dig, the more problems one sees. I am enough of a perfectionist that I didn't want to re-install a greasy starter with bendix problems, or a clutch that had not been re-newed, or an engine that had questionable compression across all the cylinders. So it is at this point that all of us who have restored a car have to decide: driver or champ-class. As you know, many choose to NOT restore the engine compartment, and that's fine with me. However, I became intrigued, almost obsessed with authenticity since I had a true British right-hand drive car.
It is the path I chose to take with my E-Type, and did so to please myself and not anyone else. Sure, trophies and all that is icing on the cake, but that's all it is.

Same is true with trailer hauling. I have been through enough thurnderstorms while driving my little E-Type to know that it leaks like a sieve, wiper barely work to keep the screen clear, its hot as hell inside, and I'm riding on skinny little tires in traffic where everyone else is still doing 80mph. It is not a comfortable feeling.

I answered the "local" call for cars to caravan up to Nashville for the 2002 Challenge Championship, but ultimately, only 2 cars ended up going; mine and a C-Type. I was NOT going to drive this car 1,000 through God-knows what kind of roads and weather, so, I purchased the cheapest enclosed trailer I could find. My car was not yet finsihed, and I worked on it at nights wherever we stopped along the way. When I got there, I still had a few days before the show, and I was out in the parking lot trying to get the interior installed. Had it not been for the unselfish help from a lot of other friends and car enthusiasts, I would have never made it. I scored quite low, but that was okay, as I was very proud to even be amongst the other great Jaguars in the show. And yes, had to drive 17 miles to a little town which was the show site. Many cars had to peel out of the caravan due to over-heating, but not mine.

So my point is that I choose to keep my E-Type in top show-condition because this is the car I have always wanted, and I have owned this little E-Type now for over 35 years, through thick and thin. So when I arrive at another city 300 miles away with a trailered "museum-piece", I do so because I want to protect the car that I spent so many long years and hard-earned money to restore. It is my way of respecting this car that has become a part of my family.

For those who choose the Driven path, that's fine with me...to each his own. I admire and respect those cars as well. But I don't hold their decision against them, nor do I think my car is any better...it's just different. I bring my car to be a part of the celebration of the heritage, and to be amongst friends. Sure, I'm on the other side of the fence in regards to this trailer issue, and hopefully the majority of the membership that this decision affects can come some rational compromise.

Regards,
Patrick McLoad

Edited on 2008-04-22 11:35:35

OK, I am only done with Patrick Asterix.

I will only participate in D-Class in the way that I see to be the "right" way. I can only hope that my fellow entrants feel the same way. If not, oh well.

So I guess I will entering Driven-Driven Class or Driven Squared Class.

Mark: here's the "new" saloon: the chances of making it across the great divide to your show are not favorable yet.

Dan Lokun

Dan,

I going to add your pledge to our registration form with a signature line beneath. I like it!

Having pledged fealty to the Lord of Driven, you're welcome at the Saloons in the Old West anytime, even if you don't have a saloon.

(Yes, William, I'm kidding. :-p)

Peter,

If you've been able to navigate the shoals of incivility and are still around, let me explain a few things.

First, the discussion here is not at all reflective of what happens at a club level. The reason that this is such a big deal, as you've noted, is that it represents a fundamental de facto shift in the philosophy of an important component of JCNA Concours d'Elegance. On a local club level, it's a rule change -- a minor blip on the radar.

Second, as past president of the Jaguar Club of Central Arizona, and a person accused of running boring meetings, that's part of the nature of club governance. You have to spend some time making club decisions. We encourage people to attend if they're interested, but warn them that it could be boring (and they might get roped into running an upcoming event!). I've watched other club presidents try to make meetings fun, the only problem is if they don't get club business done, the club is in something of a state of chaos during their tenure.

Third, AGM delegates have a tendency to swing back and forth. Just like Congress swings from Republican to Democrat and back, sometimes the drivers have more clout and other times it's the perfection set. Most clubs have a mix of events which appeal to one group or the other.

Fourth, the biggest problem most clubs have is enthusiastic members who are willing to pitch in. The example you give of a British car show is illustrative because there you aren't limited to a single marque. The pool is bigger and thus the number of energetic individuals is greater. We have a great British Car group (not an official organization) in the Metro Phoenix Area. The third Sunday of most months, we have 2-3 dozen British Cars show up for drives. They put on a great annual show and an excellent 2-day tour both of which include 150 cars. Because I'm a driver, I feel more at home with this group, but that doesn't mean I ignore the Jaguar contingent.

For example, although I don't have my cars judged, I've been the Chief Judge for our club for the last five years or so. I do that because I'm a glutton for punishment and after a few problems with a few events prior to my taking over, I wanted to see the job done by the book.

Besides those jobs, I've been newsletter editor (award winning), webmaster (award winning), membership director, concours director, tech session leader, and probably a couple other jobs I don't recall.

In a volunteer organization, you have a huge amount of latitude to make it what you want because, unfortunately, most people don't volunteer. You'll get maybe 10%. So when you look at your British Car club, 10% of a few hundred is a bunch, but when you look at your local Jaguar club, it's 10% of 50? 75?

If your local Jaguar Club is boring, it's an indication of a lack of volunteers. The fact that you have had the enthusiasm and interest to wade tactfully into this discussion as a pre-member means that you would be a welcome addition to most any club. If you have had the energy to follow this conversation, you have an excellent opportunity to go in and take your club in new directions. I keep returning to Doug Ingram and what he's done with Jaguars on the Island in Vancouver, but that's an excellent example of creating a wonderful event where everyone feels welcome, not just the perfectionists. If your interest is driving, organize some interesting ones over some great driving roads that no one knows about. If it's turning a wrench, organize some tech sessions. If it's track time, get them out on the track. Every club of any size has members that want to do this stuff, but if they're not it's because no one has stepped up.

It's what I said in many President's messages to our club members. "It's your club. It's not what I make it, it's what you make it." In a somnambulant club, it takes just one person to wake everyone up.

I took issue with your statement where you said you would discriminate against those who are not breaking any rules, you are wrong. I don't owe you an apology for that. You on the other hand owe an explanation and an "apology" for being wrong.

Mr. Jenkins,
Once again, you need to apolojize to all of us that you you have offended. Until then the question will be unanswered.

mike fulton,

Once again, you need to let potential entrants in any show that you are judging in know if you're going to discriminate against them based on your personal biases and prejudices.

If you don't like being criticized for being wrong, then stop being wrong.

Mr. Jenkins,
As soon as you apologize to all that you have offened on this forum, I will give you my answer.

Edited on 2008-04-22 0:10:41

mike fulton,

Just answer the question and spare us the drama. If you are judging Driven class and the JCNA rules allow trailering, will you discriminate against those who trailer their car just because you don't like the rule change?

Mr. Jenkins,
So know you have brought my beloved Peaches into all of this. You will be hearing from my lawyer soon.
Mike

Okay, you win ... I will hang with "the other guys" and you can mosey along now - I'm done.
D Lokun

Edited on 2008-04-21 20:01:35

Edited on 2008-04-21 19:57:24

Edited on 2008-04-21 19:53:20

I hereby pledge NOT to trailer any car to compete in any Driven Class(es) in any JCNA event , (so help me god). I further believe that trailering any car in any Driven Class(es) violates the sprit, if not the letter, of JCNA's Driven Class(es) but I also try to uphold the JCNA Rules and so will not make comparisons or criticisms of another entrant or his/her car(s) .... Signed ... D Lokun 90 XJ-S (D-08A)

There, now I am good for 2008 and ready to go ... a few more of these kinds of pledges in D-Class and we are okay until the next AGM when I suspect the well intentioned but really, (really!) unpopular Rule change will presumably bite the dust ....

Whadda say Mark (down in Arizona)? Now can I go to a show in D-Class without being a scab?

Peter (?):
Really, don't you have actually BE a member of something before you can resign or complain?

Don't you have to actually try something before you can condemn it?

Don't you like green eggs and ham?

If you are not part of the solution, aren't you part of the problem?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained (and nothing lost I suppose).

I hope your Jags hit the road soon. Clubs don't make our cars cool .. They ARE cool.

Lots of people like to travel solo without the pack - really don't sweat it.

D Lokun,
C-19 (not trailered yet) & D08-A (NO TRAILER!)

Glad to have helped.

From Fulton:

"Am I joking about my statement about asking DRIVEN participants if they drove or trailered their car? I guess you will just have to figure this out for yourself."

What is very relevant to the discussion here is whether or not you as a judge will deliberately discriminate against someone who trailers their car to a concours and enters in driven class and you refuse to answer the question. You as a judge have no right or authorization to make up your own rules due to your personal biases and prejudices. Do you honestly think that is acceptable behavior by a judge? Your refusal to answer speaks volumes and you have no business being a judge if that's what you're going to do.

Since you are still unable to grasp this concept, let me see if I can put it into terms you might be able to understand: If I think it's childish and immature for concours entrants to give their cars silly names like "peaches" and I made up my own unwritten rule that I, as a judge will be more critical of entrants who give their cars stupid names, do you think that's fair?

I still wonder what Stew Cleave means by "Sometimes the unwritten rules are the best rules!" and as a Chief Judge does he really instruct his judges to apply "unwritten rules" when judging cars.

He still has time to use the chucklehead defense and pretend he was joking.........