JCRC Position on Driven Division Trailering

For discussion : A proposed Compromise re Driven Division Trailering

Although I agree fully and am in strong support of the position of the JCRC (as presented by Dick Cavicke and proposed for discussion and vote at the 2009 AGM) regarding the controversy on the current ruling of Trailering in the Driven Division -ie to rescind the previous ruling approved at the 2008 AGM and return completely to the original, I wonder if it might be considered wise to have a back-up proposal available should the JCRC proposal fail. Accordingly, I have taken the ideas (as I understand them) proposed by Mark Stephenson in the Concours and Originality Forum of 10/14/08 and as further clarified by Dick Maury in his posting of 10/15/08, and with minor modifications would like to present the idea for further discussion in this Forum and to perhaps be presented as a back-up alternate compromise proposal at the AGM ÔÇôONLY if the JCRC proposal should fail passage.

1)- Beginning with each year, if you wish to trailer your Driven ÔÇôentry car, you must certify that you have logged at least 100 miles (or proportional part there-of) per month since the last ÔÇ£current yearÔÇØ Concours to which you trailered this car.

2) - The documentation of recorded mileage would be required only for those Driven-Division cars which are trailered to the Concours in question.

3) - It is only the second Concours of the current year to which you trailer your Driven-entry car that the documentation of such interval mileage is required ÔÇôregardless of the occurrence of intervening Concours to which the car was actually Driven.

4) - If you do not wish to trailer your Driven-entry car, the Mileage requirement does not apply for that Concours -HOWEVER-

5) - For ÔÇ£non-traileredÔÇØ Driven Division entrees, the entrant must sign on a designated place on the entry form certifying that the Driven-entry car has been driven to the Concours site (or general location there-of) from its usual place of storage ÔÇô and the documentation of mileage would not be required.

I would add the following:

6) - If the entrant wishes to trailer his/her Driven Division entry to the Concours site, the ENTRANT MUST provide for the JudgesÔÇÖ inspection a copy of the entry form of the previous ÔÇ£current-yearÔÇØ Concours to which the car was trailered and attest as correct the previously recorded and current mileage, and certify (by signature) having met the intervening mileage requirement as stated in #1 ÔÇôabove.

7) - If it is subsequently discovered that the information provided as required in # 6 (above) is incorrect or falsified in any way, the scores recorded for the previous and current Concours in question shall be officially voided by JCNA.

Since the above stated proposal does not preclude trailing a Driven Division entrant to one Concours per year without a mileage requirement, the entrant need only to decide which Concours that shall be ÔÇôincluding the Challenge Championship or the WesternStates Concours. If you wish to routinely trailer your Driven Division car to more than one Concours, YOU (the entrant) must document that the car is indeed driven. If the entrant is required to certify by signature that the information is correct (including that the car was indeed driven from ÔÇ£its homeÔÇØ to the Concours site), and they wish to lie about this, what can you do??

One thing that some are overlooking is that any new rules with any additional paperwork or reading the odometer would only apply to the entrant trailering their car. Driven cars in driven class would still be the same and not have to "jump through hoops" to enter their car. Therefore, any additional work would only be required for very few cars. As mentioned on the odometer suggestion, there could be a form easily downloaded, the mileage written in with a date and signed by the chief judge at the show. From what I am seeing, this would require maybe 20 signatures over 65 clubs over the year. That is about 1 in 3 that would require any effort on the judges part. That is not an overwhelming problem and would not take a lot of time or effort. What it would allow is for someone in certain circumstances to be able to attend an event that they might otherwise not. In fact, I have only seen and heard of one car this year that this would apply to. If there is anyone out there that wants a rule change, they really need to speak up. We really need to see if there are two sides to the story as it is not worth the time and effort to change the rules if it is not going to benefit anyone or any events.

Bob,

Thanks for the kind comments.

That's my wife and I in the 120 on a 150-mile Sunday drive. Hopefully, unlike Fearless Freddie, we have a lot of years ahead of us behind the wheel. I bought the car in 2000 from an Attorney in the DC area.

Lou,

I think you can read the odometer from the B-pillar, but I haven't tried it. But if it's too much work to write down the mileage, it's too much work to write down the mileage. If everyone agrees the reinstating the old rule is the way to go, I'll vote for it. If it means that ten or twenty entries can't show up at the concours around the country because we've made it logistically dangerous or impossible for them, that's the rule, if it passes.

I am just presenting what I consider to be an easily applied alternative that comports with the spirit of Driven Division and still allows the flexibility for people who have more luggage than boot space, more entries than drivers, entries too old for new roads, or whatever, to trailer their Driven Division Jaguar, provided they've driven the car to a certain extent.

Bear in mind that if you are oposed to any rule that makes more work for the judges, it would be inconsistent for you to favor the rule that Dick C. has proposed. He doesn't state it explicitly, but to fully apply his rule would require the Chief Judge or another judge observe the unloading area and note all the Jaguars being rolled off trailers to make sure none are entered in Driven Division. I think having the OV judges write down the mileages as they check mechanicals, is easier and less time consuming.

William,

Actually, I think we are reaching a consensus. Certainly one day of discussion is not paralysis. I'm not opposed to Dick C.'s rule. I'll support nearly anything that codifies a distinction between Champion and Driven Divisions. I'd just like to see it be broad enough and flexible enough that it gives as many people as possible a chance to participate. And this is from a guy who doesn't own a trailer, drove his XK120 with no top, through the desert and multiple rain showers, in late July, 1200 miles from Phoenix to Western States and back, limped home the last 500 miles with a dropped valve guide, and has the head now out being rebuilt. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat.

In fact, I'm coming back even stronger with an upgrade from HD6 to HD8 carbs (neither of which are original for the car); a ported and polished intake manifold; stripped and smoothed, Jet-Hot-coated exhaust manifolds; and my unique 2-1-2 exhaust system that actually runs through the hole in the frame. I can't wait to get back on the road.

Reading through these posts one can see how it is vitrually impossibe to get a concensus on even such a simple issue. It makes me thing of our Government paralysis! As to Robert Sheridan and the red XK120. I would say it was not, unless of course it has been dressed up since Fred Lake had it. he was a character and I can still picture that scowling smile he had especially when he came in because of a mechanical problem. He enjoyed life to the max.

Thanks to Dick Cavicke and the JCRC for clearly setting forth their position regarding the trailering change approved at the 2008 AGM. I support that position.

Dan: regarding the 1992 V12 VDP: I do have a register of these cars and have found about 50 of the 100 originally made, but there is no public register. Do you want to contact me at V12-VDPSHAW.CA ?

Hey Mark, Is the picture of the red XK120 "Fast Freddie" who was a member of CJA and passed away years ago. Did you buy his red XK120?

By the way, I own a 1987 XJ6 Vanden Plas nad want to show it on Driven Class. I agree that "driven" should mean "driven". I would really be ticked off to drive my car to a show then see someone back their car off a trailer and take 1st place. Your comments make a lot of sense.

Bob Sheridan, new member

Mark, the OV judges were folded into the regular judges a few years ago, and they still cannot tough the vehicle. I am not usually that friendly with my participants, to lay my head against his chest in order to see the odometer. Besides we have a lot to do as it is in the fifteen minutes allotted to us. You are adding a ton of work for us, with very little benefit. The fact is that most do not cheat. Those that do, we have never been able to do anything about it, in any case. I know of only one person who would make use of the trailer rule, and he does not use it. I don't disagree with him. I would not trailer a 55 year old Jag down the Florida Turnpike 300 mile to Miami, nor does he do it either. So instead he does not go to many concourse in 120. BTW, I did not like the rule change and voted against it then. I will vote down anything that is going to add work to the judges task and time. I don't do much judging anymore (I train, test, new and old judges; and set up the judges on the show site), so I am not really directly affected, other than I do show my car.

Lou,

The OV judges would be getting the odometer reading, so the owner would be sitting in the car turning all the stuff on and off at the time. The Chief Judge would enter the mileage in a field provided by Pascal on the JCNA website. I'd like to see Pascal create some kind of flag/link if the car had been shown earlier in the year so that the CJ could verify the mileage. Better yet, he could have the website do the math for the CJ, but that's probably asking a little much.

Mark, as a judge may not touch the car during the show, just how will I get to see the odometer? This is especially true with modern Jags as they have to have the ignition on in order to be able to read it? Also that will create a nightmare of paperwork. Just how will the subsequent clubs know what the mileage was at the last show the car attended? Remember the score sheets are not kept by the cub, but returned to the entrant. Someone who would cheat in the first place would not be phased to make a small correction on the old score sheet or even if he had participated earlier. Are you expecting the score keeper (the CJ or a designee) to look up every entrant on-line the day of the show or beforehand? Its a good idea, but I just don't think that it would be practical to implement.

Gregory,

You misread the proposal I presented.

Driven Division Jaguar entries will be required to driven 100 miles per month or part of a month between the date OF THEIR FIRST SHOWING IN A CALENDAR YEAR AND EVERY SUBSEQUENT SHOWING THAT CALENDAR YEAR (not shouting, just emphasizing).

No one would have to drive Jaguars during the winter. The clock starts the first show of the year, every year. If your first show in the Northwest is mid-May and the mileage is 50,000, when you show again in early June, the mileage would have to be 50,100. By the end of August, it would have to be 50,400. You could tow the car home and not put another mile on it, and tow it to the first concours of the next year with 50,400 miles and still be eligible.

I'm surprised that the biggest objection is that the judges would have to enter the mileage on the scoresheet and the entrants would have to note the mileage on a scrap of paper and actually drive the car a couple hundred miles. We are talking Driven, after all. I thought the trophies would be the concern. As a Chief Judge, I am totally willing to enter all the Driven mileages onto the JCNA site if it means having a sensible, simple, flexible Driven Division rule.

The old rule is better than no rule, so if no one likes this idea because judges and entrants are burdened with having to track the mileage of Driven Division entries, then I'd support returning to the old rule. It's preferable to have one rule that would get an up or down vote at the AGM rather than competing rules, none of which gets a majority.

My concern is that the old rule was not only rescinded, but rescinded overwhelmingly at the last AGM, in part because of it's rigidity. Do we run the risk of the old rule failing to be reinstated for the same reason?

Maybe it is only a handful of people who the inflexible rule affects, but I'd sure like to see older cars such as Peaches, the SS, shown at more concours and the owners of both Champion and Driven Division cars not have to choose which one they will bring and which one they have to leave at home.

I support the change in Driven Division back to the way it was before the AGM last year. Over the past year there are valid and compelling reasons to allow trailering in Driven Division, but there are just as many valid and compelling reasons why it should not be allowed and I am glad the JudgeÔÇÖs Concours Rules Committee has made the proposal.

I donÔÇÖt doubt that there will always be those that will ÔÇ£secretlyÔÇØ trailer a driven car to concours. It must be lonely at that motel far from everyone else attending the event. In my opinion the conversations in the parking lot of the hotel/motel are one of the best parts of concours. My philosophy is that if someone cheats to win a trophy, then the best justice is that they have to look at it every day and let it remind themselves of being the (insert choice of adjective here) that they are.

With due respect to everyone that has made proposals about required mileage, why propose a rule that requires me to jump through additional hoops (requirements) to show my car in Driven Division just so some other guy can trailer his? Let alone the additional work and record keeping it will require for everyone. Just my .02 worth.

Jerry Liudahl
Old Irish Racing

Thanks to Dick Cavicke and the JCRC for clearly setting forth their position regarding the trailering change approved at the 2008 AGM. I support that position.

1. If the change did not increase participation as intended .... then the status quo was fine ... just rescind the vexing amendment at the next AGM.

2. Cheating was never an issue as the old (or new) rule never precluded cheating.

3. As aside to Dr. G.A. in Victoria, is there an accessible '92 VDP registry (the plated 100 V-12s)?

D Lokun
Mk IX, etc.

As both a regular concours entrant and Chief Judge, I would not be in favour of the additional burden represented by odometer checks, despite the well-considered nature of the proposal. In addition, some of us have more than one Jaguar - some have 4 or 5 (me for instance), any and all of which are concours-entered cars. Keeping them all exercised, especially over the winter means that meeting a 160 km (100 mile) per month requirement may or may not work. In my case, for example, my last seasonal show might be in August, the next one in June; according to the proposal I would have to put 900 miles on each car I might want to show over that period, much of which is inclement weather. In my case, it would turn a hobby/obsession into work and I would have yet another reason to NOT participate.

Jerry,
I believe that you're right on the target! Why would we even consider adding extra work to the entrant or the workers at the Concours when NO ONE has shown any hard evidence that driving to a Concours is a problem for more then a handful of people. It's interesting that at the recent Western States Meet , I understand that the longest driven car was an S1 E-Type, showing in the Championship class where he finished third, after driving well over 1000 miles touring before the event.
I think that I sold you some Jaguar related "stuff" on ebay a few years ago.
Bob

I support the change in Driven Division back to the way it was before the AGM last year. Over the past year there are valid and compelling reasons to allow trailering in Driven Division, but there are just as many valid and compelling reasons why it should not be allowed and I am glad the JudgeÔÇÖs Concours Rules Committee has made the proposal.

I donÔÇÖt doubt that there will always be those that will ÔÇ£secretlyÔÇØ trailer a driven car to concours. It must be lonely at that motel far from everyone else attending the event. In my opinion the conversations in the parking lot of the hotel/motel are one of the best parts of concours. My philosophy is that if someone cheats to win a trophy, then the best justice is that they have to look at it every day and let it remind themselves of being the (insert choice of adjective here) that they are.

With due respect to everyone that has made proposals about required mileage, why propose a rule that requires me to jump through additional hoops (requirements) to show my car in Driven Division just so some other guy can trailer his? Let alone the additional work and record keeping it will require for everyone. Just my .02 worth.

Jerry Liudahl
Old Irish Racing

Dick,

While I am strongly opposed to the Driven Division rule permitting trailering to all events, I think there are some legitimate circumstances where trailering a Driven Jaguar should be permitted.

In Arizona, there are not many secondary roads, and those that exist can be pretty lonely. A pre-WWII Jaguar with a top speed of 50 mph is going to be a rolling menace on a 75 mph Interstate. Likewise, someone who lives a couple hundred miles from a concours site and has two or more cars to show, has no way of getting a Driven Division entry to the show.

We shouldn't set a rule that requires a long list of exceptions, whether it be by the type of show or individual circumstances. Once you start down that path, each succeeding AGM seems to add more and more that are less and less legitimate.

I honestly think we need to start back at square one and look at alternative ways of addressing the balance between driving and the logistics of showing in as simple a manner as possible.

First of all, let's address unfairness. There is obviously systemic unfairness in anything involving driving because people who live a mile from the concours site don't have nearly the worry of showing their Jaguars as people who are a couple hundred miles away. People who live in a densely populated area with lots of clubs in close proximity don't have to put on nearly the mileage that someone in the Southwest Region does to meet the 3-show requirement. We're not going to eliminate those differences, no matter what we do.

The next issue we have to deal with is cheating. I don't know how rampant it is, and there is always going to be a way around the rules. Our goal should be to make it as unfeasible and uneconomical as possible.

With all of that in mind, I personally think that Dick Maury's proposal fits the bill. Yes, there are a couple things we have to take into account, but if the idea is to get people to drive AND participate, his rule permits both without restrictions.

In a nutshell, what Dick and I discussed at Western States with Steve Kennedy in attendance was his idea to create a mileage standard for Driven Division rather than a procedural one. Dick's plan was to set a number of miles that had to be driven between concours for a car to qualify for Driven Division. I'm going to modify and simplify his basic plan somewhat in this proposal.

PROPOSED RULE:

Driven Division Jaguar entries will be required to driven 100 miles per month or part of a month between the date of their first showing in a calendar year and every subsequent showing that calendar year. If two concours are held within 3 days, the mileage requirement is 25 miles. The OV judge will note the mileage of Driven Division entries on the scoresheet. As part of the Concours Report, the Chief Judge will enter the mileage of the entry in the appropriate field on the JCNA website. If a Driven Division entry is later found to have had insufficient mileage between it's first and a subsequent concours, the subsequent concours score is invalidated and will not be counted toward regional or JCNA rankings.

EXAMPLE

If a car is shown on April 21, and again on May 5, the odometer has to have an additional 100 miles or the car is ineligible. Because most driven cars would be driven to the second concours, and because most clubs are more than a hundred miles apart, putting 100 miles (2 hours of driving) on a Driven entry between two concours should not be difficult, in fact some people might think it's a little wimpy. If the car is shown again sometime between October 22 and November 21, the car would have to have at least 700 additional miles since the first show.

CHANGES

This will create a little more work for Judges. From a recording standpoint, it would require an additional field on the scoresheets and for reporting on the JCNA website. Pascal could set something up that would automatically flag insufficient mileage, or at the very least, flag that the car had been entered in an earlier concours so the mileage could be verified.

This may create a little more work for a Driven Division entrant. If the entrant is concerned that he or she might not accumulate sufficient mileage before the next concours, he or she would be wise to note the mileage at the first concours and calculate what's needed for subsequent shows.

FORSEEN PROBLEMS

I recognize one problem. If an entrant shows a car in Driven Division but doesn't have sufficient mileage to qualify, the Chief Judge won't know until he or she enters the scores on the JCNA website. By that time, the entrant will have taken the trophy and run -- well, if he or she was from out of town. If the person is a local club member, it would be easier to handle. However, I'm operating on the assumption that for people traveling around to numerous concours, the regional or JCNA rankings are more important than a trophy, in other words, they'll police themselves. Is this a valid assumption or is it a showstopper?

OBJECTIONS:

Objection: My speedometer's broken.
Reply: You are driving this car on a regular basis. Your speedometer should be working.

O: The weather doesn't permit me to drive a classic.
R: Bad weather -- too hot, too cold, too rainy -- also means that the chances of a concours being held in your area at that time are slim. In the Arizona desert, you aren't going to see people driving Jaguars much in the summer, but we aren't going to have concours then either. We do have concours in the spring and fall, and there is ample time during those times of the year to put the miles on.

O: The car was being repaired between the two concours.
R: This is one that I don't have a good answer to, except to say that it wasn't driven so maybe it's right that it shouldn't qualify. Knowing the rules, the entrant can always plan to have the car back early so that he/she can put on the required miles before the next show.

CHEATING

Is cheating possible? Certainly, someone could roll their odometer forward to avoid driving the car. Dick M. suggested they could put the car up on jackstands and run it ahead in the garage. But, odometer tampering is fraud and there's an economic disincentive to running up miles on your car. There is a disincentive to cheat here, whereas there was an incentive to cheat under last year's rule.

BENEFITS

The rule is straightforward and not cluttered up with a exceptions that open the door to further exceptions.

True drivers are not inconvenienced in the least.

The owners of trailer queens won't be willing to put a hundred road miles per month on their pristine examples so won't jump to Driven Division.

Owners of older Driven Jaguars who exercise them regularly will be able to trailer them to shows and will not be forced to put themselves or their Jaguars in harm's way on Interstates to qualify for Driven Division.

Multi-car entrants will not be forced to choose between showing their Champion Division and their Driven Division cars because the rule forbids them from trailering their Driven Division entries.

Some people in some areas may actually have to drive their Jaguars more to meet these proposed Driven Division requirements.

And, to answer William Brady's concern, you could pack the SUV with all of the things the wife needs to be stylish at a Jaguar event, and not have to do laundry like we did at Western States.

Finally, to answer John Testrake's question about whether this rule is even needed because people haven't entering trailer queens in Driven. That may be true, but if a distinction isn't codified, all it would take would be one person with a 99.95 trailered E-type, going to a show where he recognized that three E-types entered were all 99.96 or better, or that he would rather finish first in JCNA Driven than finish out of the running in Champion Division, and it will leave a very bad taste in everyone's mouth, including the entrant who will have people grumbling behind his or her back. And we'll all be back here again, trying to figure out how to distinguish between Champion and Driven Division.

Edited on 2008-10-13 22:46:17

Would keeping a mileage record of all cars entered be of help? I see no problem with trailering in any class, there are many reasons for using a trailer especially in the case of roadsters, there is not enough room for a lady to take the simple things she might need for social purposes!

I really haven't had a dog in this fight as I drive my cars to all events and show in Champion division. Of course, my cars are not as old as, say, an XK120 or SS saloon.

I'm now interested, however, in the exclusion of CC and regional event concours from the national standings as proposed by the JCRC. If this prohibition extends to Champion division, it would remove one of the big factors for me when deciding to attend one of those events.

Maybe I'm the lone ranger here, but while I like the unique social attraction of the CC, making it an "extra" show that doesn't count would probably put me in the position of passing on the whole event. I'd like to come, but the cost and time involved plus the wear and tear on the car would probably tip the scale against for me unless the show was held very close to my home town.

Secondly, I wonder how many people this trailering rule has actually affected. Here in St. Louis, we just wrapped up the largest JCNA concours on the continent to date (counting cars judged), and no Driven entries were trailered. Has there been a large influx of trailered Driven division entries this year at other venues? Not discounting the esoteric academic debate on this forum, I'm thinking the real world effect of the rule change has been minimal. Conversely, moving toward eliminating CC and regional scores from the year-end international standings would have a much larger impact and affect many more entrants who, like me, might opt to not attend.

I'm for returning to the original rules where Driven division entries are not trailered to any shows including the CC and regional events.

I really haven't had a dog in this fight as I drive my cars to all events and show in Champion division. Of course, my cars are not as old as, say, an XK120 or SS saloon.

I'm now interested, however, in the exclusion of CC and regional event concours from the national standings as proposed by the JCRC. If this prohibition extends to Champion division, it would remove one of the big factors for me when deciding to attend one of those events.

Maybe I'm the lone ranger here, but while I like the unique social attraction of the CC, making it an "extra" show that doesn't count would probably put me in the position of passing on the whole event. I'd like to come, but the cost and time involved plus the wear and tear on the car would probably tip the scale against for me unless the show was held very close to my home town.

Secondly, I wonder how many people this trailering rule has actually affected. Here in St. Louis, we just wrapped up the largest JCNA concours on the continent to date (counting cars judged), and no Driven entries were trailered. Has there been a large influx of trailered Driven division entries this year at other venues? Not discounting the esoteric academic debate on this forum, I'm thinking the real world effect of the rule change has been minimal. Conversely, moving toward eliminating CC and regional scores from the year-end international standings would have a much larger impact and affect many more entrants who, like me, might opt to not attend.

I'm for returning to the original rules where Driven division entries are not trailered to any shows including the CC and regional events.

Pat-
That's the way it always was.
Not just with Jaguars.

There are always going to be folks who want to get an "edge" over the competition by trailering to the backside of the No-Tell Mo-Tel and unloading.

Now we have to start recording odometer readings between meets, eh?
(joke, son, just a joke)

Dick, As a Chief Judge I applaud this proposal but it does have a flaw. Saying that an entry cannot be trailered to a Concours venue in not sufficiently definitive. Theoretically, under this rule, the entrant can trailer his/her car to the motel across the street and then drive the short distance to the Concours venue. This is what has happend many times in the past here in Gainesville. As a judge I have no idea where people are staying with their cars an whether they trailered their driven entries to their hotel. I would ask you to consider something like having the entrant sign or initial a statement that the car has not been trailered within 25 miles (or some other distance) of the Concours venue. This will (1) encourage people living hundreds of miles away to trailer their cars to that point (2) Put the onus on the entrant to be honest.