Gutting authenticity rules

Jim, George and I agree on many more thing than disagree. One is that we need and have been trying to level the field with judging. We know that not all judges score the same. If they did how could a preservation class car get a perfect score? In 05 the JCRC reminded judges to enforce the stripe rule (among other things, they do this every year, BTW). Not all judges in every region get the message. On the Continental level we have been trying to change that. If you fell you cannot compete in the "C" or :D: arena there is always the "S" arena to compete in. Also in reference to another discussion, what the total point system is, is irrelevant as you are only competing against your own class not other classes. Only the Champion division has the 100 point score to distinguish it from the other classes. However, when we score we take the same amount off no matter what class it is. The final score is done by the Chief Judge or his designate scorer, and that person transforms the score to the ten or one hundred system.

James we actually agree--all of the "allowances" started to "foster participation" and in the case of Driven to make the cars more "drivable". I and others realized this was a slippery slope but the powers that be "legislated" accuracy with the "promise" that that was the last concessions to be made--each year more and more concessions were legislated and asked for. As far as the "cost to restore" idea I have neve heard of that ruling. As far as judging guides--well they have to be researched and written and approved-some have been done (and well) by members but I do not see anyone stepping up to do the ones we need--there was a lot of talk about XJ6 but the major protagonist failed to write. The problem is that to create a level playing field (and that is exactly what the JCRC tries to do) a point has to be selected where proof of correctness can be documented--that point is before the dealers in the US get their hands on them--afterwards it is just a pissing match--think of it this way please--should a member who has a correct model (whether he made it so or it escaped dealer "tarting" not get the nod over an incorrect car? Remember the credo is to improve the breed not to accept the current truth--

Hi Lou,

Our judges were informed tweice by our chief judge. Once during training and at the judges meeting at the Concours.

I have yet to see anyone take points off yet. My car was judged by two judges who are not in our club and it recieved a 10. Thank you for the information.

Jim

Jim, maybe your judges were not enforcing the rules, but up until 08 we deducted 2 points per side, in 07 in Houston we voted to reduce the deductions to 1 point per side (I know that sounds weird, who would have stripes on only one side, but that's how it was and is written). I have been a judge over five years and currently train our new judges. BTW, in the MYs 87-90 the XJSs were striped (from he XJS Gide)
:
BODY STRIPES: 1987 through 1990 Pin Stripes, Coach Stripes or Body Side Stripes were factory applied tape as a twin single color 1/8 inch over ?? inch with rounded cut to connecting piece on front pointed and rear squared ends ?¢ inch above the body side crease with a break at the front wheel arch. Running 2 inches from headlight chrome to within 1 inch of taillight. Hess & Eisenhardt rear section was left open at the taillight end, unlike the factory which is closed, two horizontal joined by vertical bit of stripe. (see photos below)
Jaguar Factory Coach Stripes closed at the rear and front.
Hess & Eisenhardt Stripes open at the rear (replaced) and closed at the front (factory). Because the rear half of the car was repainted after the conversion and restriped.

Edited on 2009-02-22 11:39:13

Cliff is right, the rule was passed at the 2007 AGM and was to be applied in 2008 after the 2007 Concours season.

I stopped showing my XJS last year with the exception of my home club Concours due to the pin stripe rule. Two other members of my club stopped as well. Mine are painted and it would require a new paint job to correct it. I agree that the cars should be completely correct in champion class. However, if youÔÇÖre going to allow aftermarket radios, for example in driven, then perhaps pin stripes as well. If not then lets stop allowing any deviation from what came off the assembly line in any but the special classes. Where do you draw the line? All correct or start allowing dealer installed items, at least in driven class.

This rule should not have been brought to a vote in 2007 unless the JCNA had clear and concise guidelines on what is a correct ÔÇ£Coaching StripeÔÇØ on a car. I know the difference on the 1996 XJS but only because I hunted it down. That information as well as whatÔÇÖs correct on all the models should have been provided to the chief judges by the JCNA. How can the rules committee expect a rule to be evenly applied if they donÔÇÖt provide adequate information?

Another point to consider is this rule is just waiting for a challenge. I believe a precedent was set by the protest committee on cost to correct. If you check out the 2000 Protest Committee Report protest #5 you will see that although body side moldings might have been applied by the dealer, the protest committee returned the points due to the cost to remove and repair the car.

ÔÇ£Protest No. 5: Entrant was marked down one point on 1994 XJS on body side moldings. He felt they were dealer installed, as it would be impossible to remove them without repainting the car.

The Committee agreed, and point was restored.ÔÇØ

If and when the pin stripe rule is challenged and the current protest committee does not rule in a similar fashion as the 2000 committee did then it will loose all credibility.

Although I donÔÇÖt like the rule and have cut back my Concours participation because of it, IÔÇÖll abide by it. But, the bottom line to this is that no rules should be allowed without proper guidelines.

By the way George, I'm not part of group advocation a change to allow dealer installed items.

Jim McDonald
1996 XJS
2994 XJ8

Pascal,
I agree the cars are judged on CONDITION NOT AUTHENTICITY, however driven cars are not judged in their engine bay or the boot, still a car such as a Daimler DS 420 is put in this grouping and that car may be totally original, still given a max of 10.
My point is judging in all three ( actually four ) areas is equivalent of C, regardless of whether authentic or not, not that it really matters but I feel it is wrong. The factory race cars are in the same Special Division, you are going to tell me next they are not authentic when they were prepared by Jaguar Cars @ Coventry..

"These Special Division cars are judged in all three areas, normally a car judged this way is given a score out of 100, not ten. There are not a ton of cars in these categories so I guess not a lot of complaints were received, and yes my car is one of them and I have met during my campaigning several others in the same predicament, they believe it is wrong , a car being judged in three areas and then given a Driven class type score with a max of 10.."

Hey Art

I disagree with you on this one... Special is a detailing competition, nothing else. The only thing that is judged is cleanliness (and condition like no dings, scratches, wear), not originality since the cars are modified.

You cant' compare an S division entrant to a C division...

Actually Art the factory considered coach lines "dated" and did not apply them for that reason--the problem we have is that correct cars that are shown should get the nod over incorrect cars--in JCNA we have a habit of wanting to "legislate" the truth--the JCRC goes to gerat length to research what is correct and the membership votes--you are correct on the wheels as well as leapers and a host of other items that are incorrect but allowed--sort of like all of the concessions that were made for driven class cars to be more drivable--then we want to trailor them! A point has to be taken that the care are correct--deductions need to be made after that point--otherwise how would you descriminate? You would advocate judging without standards? That is what we used to have and it did not work so much that the JCRC was formed! How would you approach NON authentic items?

Art, actually, what was voted upon was a reduction of the points (it had been a four point deduction (2 for each side) to 2 points (1 for each side)). The four point deduction had been around for quite some time. Jaguar with the exception of a few models and years has not painted stripes on their cars. Nor has it been an "accessory catalogue" option (which would have made it acceptable). There are many "extras" dealers put on cars that don't meet our standards (after market wheels for example) all of which are deductions. There has to be a standard or we would have to let any car in any configuration compete against factory stock cars. As there are places for them (even the XJ220, a production car, competes in the "S" classes).

If this is in fact true, I am unsure if delegates were really aware on what they were voting about, after all pretty well the majority of cars being shown have had accepted coachlines . Having Jags shipped without the factory painted on ones was just another way to supply a more affordable car. How much cheaper I am unsure , I have seen the coachlines being applied at the factory, very impressive and fast / slick application for sure.......
Perhaps Regional Reps should be asking if membership agrees with the decision, perhaps the decision should be reversed and coachlines become acceptable whether vinyl or painted.
Funny how NON AUTHENTIC alloy chromed wheels are now acceptable ( I believe ) when they were plated ( till the nineties ) by the dealers.

Art,
If I'm reading you right, it's too late. I think it was in 2007 that coachlines were determined to be non-authentic (as when it left the factory). The rule change proposed by the JCRC and approved at the 07 AGM was to be 'in play' this year so as to allow owners time last year to remove the stripes if they planned to show in Championship Class.

Of course, some are refusing to remove the stripes, perhaps because the newly uncovered paint will be 'brighter' than the surrounding paint that has been affected by life in the sun/weather or because they LIKE the stripes applied by the dealer.

I'm sure someone will recalibrate me if I'm wrong.

In general I have usually supported team decisions from the rules Concours committee. However several years ago when Special Division was created ( not the correct word I know ) people did not realize that cars which had prior been judged out of a total score of 100 , would in fact be judged out of 10.

Apparently cars that are not judged out of 100 are ineligible for some awards, I believe the Fred Horner Sportsmanship Award is one of them.

Perhaps the above award should be renamed "The Best Overall Performance Award", as it is the award goes to the person whose car has the highest ranking in all three disciplines.

Sportsmanship is not only about winning, it is about how you win, or how you lose.

These Special Division cars are judged in all three areas, normally a car judged this way is given a score out of 100, not ten. There are not a ton of cars in these categories so I guess not a lot of complaints were received, and yes my car is one of them and I have met during my campaigning several others in the same predicament, they believe it is wrong , a car being judged in three areas and then given a Driven class type score with a max of 10.

The latest item which actually brings me here is word that coachlines ( pinstriping )applied @ dealerships are to be declared NON AUTHENTIC , .... Almost all Jags had these items applied for years and years in North America.

Owners have striven to preserve these coachlines as most did not really know they were not factory applied, many at a great cost, this item must not be passed at the AGM if a huge backlash is to be averted. I vote no for sure on this possible item being taken to the AGM by the committee.
Concernedly Yours, Edmund A ( Art ) Dickenson

Art you are exactly right--but the move is to get the BIG trophy for an incorrect car--go figure--sort of like a kids soccer team!

What Bob is talking about is there is a move afoot to allow anything a dealer put on a car be accepted as correct (wonder how hard it is to get a car salesman to write a BS letter) so if a XJ S shows up with a hot tub where the boot was and the owner has a "letter" from a dealer that they installed it it should be allowed! This is an effort of some to take care of a few.

They would be if the deductions amounted to anything major but here we're talking about non Jaguar or Jaguar North America approved accessories s that were dealer installed.

HI Robert,
would such cars not be handled by the already created Special Class's....