Tire Rule, tread wear rating problem?

> George, you are very good, I hope to meet you one day, although it may
never
> happen with the war and all that other not so important stuff. My
> interpretation would be as follows with your description of the afore
> mentioned VeHicklez, as they now call them in some parts of the U.S.A.
> If you showed them with the race tyres in Conc it should be fine. Although
> mostly the race tyres I have seen have markings saying "for track use
only"
> or words to that effect. Although I delivered some of these so called
tyres
> to a friend of mine just a couple of months age and I did not even check
> them out too much. They were Dunlop Race Tyres, and strange by today's
> standards they had about half an inch of tread on them.
> I think usually if you show up at a performance meet if you have tyres
that
> state on the sidewall, Dunlop Race Tyres, you will probably go to race car
> status, I guess you would just be a "STOCK" race car then. What do you
think
> to that for a clinical, whether you wanted one or not Art Analysis. If you
> are not smiling by now , do not reply to this reply. Turn on the comedy
> network and do not turn it off till you go to sleep

George,
> I am not aware of some of this sticky wickets, although if the
> tyres are wet and sticky, they must be race rubber, and only allowed in
> modified with the rest of uz. Please note this is a gutt feeling and may
not
> be used as evidence against old cricketers, whether batty or balding. Art

Then help me understand Art how 120s,140s,150s,and S1 E types could be ordered (from the parts catalog and NOT in the option section) with Racing tires and they not be stock? This is a very sticky wicket- watch out for the googley.

George Camp

Appropriate to the class means, any model in the class may use any tyre/rim fitted as stock item in the class.
This wording was I believe used in the prior year, and Ihad few calls to tell peopl what any of these items meant. This has only appeared to have started causing problems since the forum pages have opened up communications. Before I recieved an odd call or two per year, clarified the rule , and thet was the end of it.Although considering we have six or seven thousand members, we still have only the dedicated few who really give a hoot. If in fact these items were totally administered by each committee, with guidance and voting from the poeople who are doing the particular discipline these items could be changed reevaluated quickly.

Art,

I didn't say the committee was biased, it is clear that the tire rating is mistake caused by lack of homework.

I don't think that hinting AGM delegates didn't understand is constructive, it's even insulting to those who made the effort to travel to Charlotte. altogether they approved most of the proposals.

Re Slalom, let's see what they rjected...

Running the course backward... teh concern was that it woudl be harder to run the course backward. It isn't fair to say delegates didn't undestand what had been disccused... was anything done to counter this ? nope... Tell you what... why don't we set reverse the start / finish boxes at Phoenix after the official runs and have a few guys run it backward... if their time are close, then let's present this again next year with evidence... otherwise, if safety is an issue then clubs will need to find alternate locations...

Rule. 20. Stock class cars may use any tire and rim appropriate to the class, tire must have a tread wear rating higher than 160 stamped on its sidewall.

problem here is ambigious language... what is appropriate? factory fitted to that model year? to any of that model during the production span? etc etc... and tehy didn't even know that you were proposing to exclude tires that were factory fitted like the Pzeros on S-types, XK8s and XKRs!!!

Someone correct me if I am wrong but there was some discussions about these issues until it was decided to send this back to com. for clarification.

Pascal

Pascal,
the committee is not biased as far as I am aware, although if the AGMers did not understand what had been discussed for many weeks and put as clearly as possible , and was available for several weeks on the web how could they vote on something that just was suggested at the AGM, Yes one item differs from the others, one item you do not like, and one item I do not like, actually I do not like either of them.

two radically diferent problems...

the rating is a mistake by the committee.
the modified class is a motion, seconded and passed.

It would make sense to amend the SP rule, re splitting modified woudl go straight against the wishes of the delegates!

As I said, the rating is not on all sidewalls... but is' ridiculously easy to find the info in a few minutes at

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirebran.htm

clicking on the brand, tire and then specs shows you what you're looking for. Kumo victoracers(50), Corsa (60), Michelin Pilot Sports Cup (80) are listed as competition tires. Goodyear's F1 Eagle Supercar doesn't show a rating... but I doubt we'll see may 335/45 out there...

Others like Pzero Assymetrico (140), P6000 (180), Bridgstone Potenza S-02(140), Eagle F1 fiorano (220), Mich Pilot Sport (220), continental Contisport Contact (160) are street tires are should be allowed in SP.

the cut off between DOT legal racing tires and Street tires appears to be around 100...

that's what I meant by the com doing its homewrok!

Pascal

Pascal, very true, although I do not have tyre specs here or a set of P Zeroes here, and you did have the information on this proposal before it went to the AGM,and you had the tyres sitting on your CARS you were probably too busy doing award winning web page material. I agree this was an oversight, and should be changed, as was the ammendment by secretary Steve Averill to the rules for slalom classes without going through the Slalom Committee. When will the President agree to have this item corrected is whAT I WANT TO KNOW. I find it understandable, people make mistakes, but it appears sometimes things are planned in a manner adverse to good ethical moralistic behaviour. I believe it is called polotics, and polotics are employed to hurt people, not heal people, destructive and not constructive.

"It is unfortunate that people with high performance tyres did not check their tyrewall ratings" ... NO ! It is unfortunate the Slalom Committee did not check the rating of some of the popular tires used by many competitors....

It's very easy to say "you should have noticed before"... yes I should have but on the other hand the commitee should have done its homework and realized some tires that are 100% street tires were being excluded!!! PZeros are street tires, they are factory installed on Jaguars, Porches, Ferraris, etc... I don't think the Porsche Club kicks out street tires out of SP.. just like SCCA doesn't!!!

Then, having "stamped on the sidewall" doesn't work... good thing rule 20 wasn't passed... I'd like someone to take a look at P6000 and see if the 180 TWR is stamped on... Warren ? you have P6000 on your E, can you look?

Again, let's not mix things here... we ARE NOT TALKING RACE RUUBER but street tires.

So try to find a solution...

Was it the intention of the committee to exclude race tires that are DOT approved but not installed by manufacturers? Pirelli Corsa, Kumo victoracer, etc...

if so... the arbitrary 160 number is a mistake and the committee should adjust this without waiting a year, with BOD approval if necessary.

Pascal

It is unfortunate that people with high performance tyres did not check their tyrewall ratings and propose an adjustment, we cannot assume as Benny Hill once said, "it just makes an ass of U and ME". so do not assume.
If a tyre is fitted as a stock Jaguar model tyre this is eligible for stock class.
On the subject of no treadwear rating, I have not encountered that problem, unless on race slicks. I am pretty sure ratings are required by LAW to be DOT rated. I have seen however tyres stamped only on one side . Possibly this was on asymetrical tyres, I am not sure.
Optional race rubber was available, on E Types I am pretty sure, and should be considered okay for Concours as far as I can say, ( although I am not the Concours Chair, and stand to be corrected as neccessary by that person ) On the other hand for Slalom Competition I would say race rubber, unless stamped on the sidewall with the correct treadwear rating , would be considered ineligible for stock class.

yes, I went to my XKR during the lunch break at the AGM and didn't find any rating printed on the tire. otherwise I would have brought this up in the afternoon session.

It seem that common sense must prevail over technicality. The intent of the rule being not to allow racing/street tires like the Corsa, P zero need to be allowed in SP. Let's imagine I upgrade the suspension on my XKR, it would be allowed in SP... but I couldn't run the E-type on the same tires? illogic.

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

The rule regarding the tread wear rating is going to be very difficult to apply. I checked the tires on two of my vehicles and neither had a tread wear rating indicated on the sidewall.... and one of these tires is the P Zero Asimmetrico. I think we have to assume that a completely stock car such as the XJR or XKR with factory mounted high performance street cars will remain in their stock class, and not put into the street prepared class. However, when dealing with cars that do not come equiped with these tires, or for that matter any other street tire that didn't come as factory equipment, I'm at a loss on how to administer the section of the rule regarding tread wear rating.

Rod Winegarner

The problem with the language is that the slalom is for some what it was never intended to be. I quit running my XK140 because I had Dunlop Racing tires on it. I was doing 44-43 but was "modified" because of tires. Although I attempted to show that racing tires were optional on 120 -150 and S1 "E" no one listened. So now they will attempt to devise another way to win. Good luck guys.

George Camp

I really thought all along that PZeros were 160 or 180 so I didn't worry until there was discussion about the language... including, higher, etc... At lunch time, I went to check the sidewalls on the XKR in the parking but didn't see anything... I was looking for 160 or 180... I genuinely thought Art had picked 160 to cover ALL street tires, including those that are factory installed ... and our main slalom sponsor best seller!

so I'll still be stuck in modified this year... with Gary and Art.. good company though...

the solution is for the Slalom Committee to do its homework instead of relying on members to pick on these details. Language has to be carefully evaluated... at a point, there was discussion of allowing only the rim size listed in the owner's manual for that car. even that would have been ambiguious.. for that car... as in specific model/year or jsut model...

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

I'm curious George, if you saw a problem, why didn't you speak up. I didn't catch the "Catch 22" in this change, nor did Pascal or others in the room. This proposal was on the website for a long time before the AGM, and several of us commented on it. The time to hear about these things was before the meeting or at least during, not after, so we could have done something about them. I'm not criticizing you in particular -- I didn't research all of the nuances of this rule change either. But if someone had spoken up and pointed out the problems, before or during the meeting, perhaps some of these issues could have been addressed or avoided all together.

Shame on all of us for not paying closer attention. What was done is done, at least for this year. Now, let's think about this and come up with a better solution to propose for next year's AGM to fix this.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Pascal- can you say sandbagged. The rule was deerred nut there were a lot of things proposed with oblique language. When I say the proposal I knew they were trying to bump blown cars into a different class.

George Camp

The point system is for next year, if it passes. Problem is for this year...

As a club, we do have to get our act together and not pass rule changes without thinking about all the implications (remember the ownership rule passed last year which prevented members with leased or corp. car to enter concours). Not having checked tire ratings and excluded one of the most popular high performance tire out of Street Prepared is a MAJOR error from the Slalom committee. And there might be more other street tires like that out there...

Pascal Gademer

Pascal,

I agree with you. For street prepared, I think that any street legal tire should be okay, on any rims, provided no body modifications are needed to mount them. Obviously, they should be given a point designation and considered in determining if a car should move up to modified, along with other changes. For example, rims other than "stock" sizes with street tires with a wear rating higher than 160 might get a 2 pt. assessment, but the same rims with a lower wear rating might get 3 pts., since there is a performance advantage to the stickier tires.

Obviously, the slalom committee will have to look at all these issues, and come up with a method to deal with them. Hopefully, a draft proposal can be developed and posted for comments well in advance of its final submission to either the Board or the next AGM for approval. That way, any issues can be discussed and resolved, and changes made if needed, before final review.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

p.s. If you have those pictures from the banquet, please email them to me when you have a chance. Thanks.

I'm not talking about rule 20 here... Stock is Stock, I agree.

My problem is with the street prepared class which is supposed to be for cars that are in between stock and fully modified

As it stands, in Street Prepared, I am not allowed to run a pure street tire on stock 15" E-type wire wheels... but I'm allowed to fit 17" or 18" rims which should fit with no body mods on a series 3 as long as I use P6000 because it's rated at 180

And having used both tires on the E-type, I can tell you there is very little difference between the P Zeros and the P6000 ... but 2 to 3" is huge...

It's completly illogic...

Pascal Gademer

Pascal,

I agree with you that to the extent that a tire is original equipment on a car, like the PZero on the XKR, it should be allowed in stock class. However, I think the intent of the original amendment to Rule 20 was to prevent tires like the PZero from being used on other models, like the E-type, in stock class. Rather, a tire appropriate to the class should be used if running in stock (i.e., original rim size and dimensions as called for in the owners manual, or equivalent sized radial if original tires were bias ply). I do agree that using PZero's or other similar high performance street tires alone on cars for which they were not original, while they might make the car street prepared rather than stock, should not automatically result in a car being forced to run modified.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

If that is the case Pascal (and we need to hear from the people who originally authored this rule first), then the rule needs to be amended to say "unless such a tire was offered as original equipment on the model in question...." or something to that effect.

Anybody know who is on the slalom committee besides Art Dickenson?

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

The PZero is a high performance tire, for street use. If the bar was placed at 160 to specifically bump these into fully modified, it would be very sneaky and I hope this is not the case. It'd rather think it's just an oversight...

If a tire is mounted at the factory on a Jaguar, it can not be cause to push others into full blown modified!

A street tire is a street tire... In SCCA autoX, since that was mentioned at the AGM, P Zeros are street tires and you will not be thrown in classes with guys driving on slicks...

If we want to improve the slalom program and make it fair, we need to make it fair for all involved.

The objective of the rule is to make sure cars driving on slicks and competition tires compete in the right class, modified. The PZeros are not some of those sticky autoX tires which maybe street legal but that no driver will use on the street except to go to and from the autoX.

Pascal Gademer

Pascal,

With regard to cars for which that tire is standard equipment, factory installed and called for in the manual, I think that the modification to Rule 20 will apply. As I remember, the rating rule on tires was not adopted, but was referred to the slalom committee for review and consideration. This is an important issue that needs to be addressed in considering tire size and rating. I believe the objective of the rule is to prevent tires like the PZero or other "sticky" tires from being used in stock class. An exception needs to be made for those newer models for which these high performance tires are original equipment. However, as the rule modification was deferred, not enacted, the old rule still applies, which would allow the use of your PZeros on your XKR, as a "stock" tire.

Under the "street prepared" rule, as written, the use of a tire with a wear rating lower than 160 would put the car in modified, rather than street prepared. An exception must be allowed for cars for which tires with lower ratings are "stock" like the XKR. But this would be something for review and consideration by the Slalom Committee in establishing a points system, and can be corrected next year.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe