Submitted by v12-vdp@shaw.ca on Sat, 12/03/2005 - 11:42

I would like some response to this posting, please.

Let's start at the beginning by stating the obvious: the JCNA considers itself to be an international club. That is why is it titled the "Jaguar Clubs of North America". It represents clubs in three sovereign and very different nations: Canada, the USA and Mexico. It is only recently that this mandate has been recognised by changing the former US-centric terminology (and that process has not been completed; one example of progress made: what used to be known as "National" awards are now properly called "North American" awards. That change, in fact, raises the importance of the award to an international status). So far, so good?
The cars prepared by Jaguar for these three distinct markets were not and are not, the same. There were, and are, different models in the different markets, equipped differently. It is imperative that the judging guides reflect these differences accurately; otherwise the guides at best are limited in usefulness, and at worst may cause serious judging and adjudication problems. The goal of the guides should be a concise accuracy.
If the above is accepted as logical, we can move forward.
The Mark 2 Guide as it stands is a model of economy of expression and of precision, but the latter only with reference to US models. It makes no mention whatsoever of the Mark 2 cars made for Canada or those assembled in Mexico. Let me state categorically here that these cars were *not* the same as the US models. (This information was presented while the Guide was in its preliminary form). I offer the following information (again) for inclusion in the Guide.
On p. 12 of the Guide reference is made to the front lighting of the Mark 2. All references in the Guide are presently to US specification cars.

1) With regard to the front flashers: the Canadian cars were all equipped with the same AMBER lens used in the rest of the world. They were ALL amber except for the USA and Switzerland, as noted in the Parts Book on pp.484/485. I suggest that the Guide listing be ammended to state that Canadian maket cars have an AMBER lens. It is not necessary to find any reference to this in the parts book since the Canadian cars were not an exception to the general fitting pattern; only the USA and Swiss cars were. (In fact many USA-market cars have now been altered to have amber lenses instead of the correct clear lenses).
2) with regard to the Fog lamps: all Canadian market Mark 2 (not 240/340) cars were fitted with Fograngers,as indeed were the cars for all world markets EXCEPT the USA. This is noted on p.491 of the Parts Book. I suggest that the Guide listing be ammended to state that Canadian cars were fitted with the Fograngers. The interior lighting switch on Canadian cars is also the "normal" one having a position for the foglamps. It is the USA cars which are the exception and this is cearly stated on p. 478 of the Parts Book where the "normal" switch (C.18189) is listed as "not required for USA" and where the US-only switch (C.18188 and its earlier variant C.15448) are listed as "For USA only".
3) rear lamp cluster: the Canadian cars have the normal ("rest of world") AMBER turns signal lens and the red brake light lens. This is made clear on p.483 where the amber lens is listed as "Not for USA" and on p. 484 where the red turn signal lens is listed as "USA only". The word "only" can be interpreted only one way: for all other countries, and this must include Canada, the rear turn signal lens is AMBER. I suggest that the Guide be ammended to reflect this fact.
My unmolested, 17,000 mile original Canadian market car has all the features listed above.
I would appreciate a response to these suggestions, which were made while the Guide was in preliminary form, but have not as yet been incorporated.

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Submitted by v12-vdp@shaw.ca on Fri, 12/16/2005 - 14:40

As a footnote to this (now worn) thread, one issue that came up was whether or not my "unmolested" (it has no additions to the original equimpment other than a dealer-installed AC unit) 17,000 original mile Canadian-market 1966 Mark 2 3.8 was built with different equipment from cars built for the US market (that is, whether it is reresentative of other Canadian-market cars). It was even suggested by one respondant that the Canadian-market cars were simply US-market cars diverted northward.

I am now in possession of the original Jaguar documentation which proves that this is not so, and which shows that the Canadian cars were built and equipped *as such* at the factory. The original handwritten factory record shows this car,with all its serial numbers, colour/trim, build date, dispatch date (January 21, 1966) and invoice date (25 January, 1966) as being sent to, and invoiced to "Jaguar Canada".

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Submitted by v12-vdp@shaw.ca on Mon, 12/05/2005 - 20:24

Steve:
Thanks for joining this thread; your input is really needed. But if you read my postings, you will have noted that I said that my car, a 17,000 original mile, unmolested, unrestored car ( 1966 3.8; I am just about to start the restoration now) has the tell-tales with the flat face towards the driver; as well, I cited many photos in Thorley and Skilleter, including one showing Sir Wm Lyons examining a NEW car with the flat face of the tell-tale facing the driver. I don't know if it is a question of saying at this point that the tell-tales definitely faced one way or the other - and I am not trying to say that in all cases the tell-tale faced with the flat surface to the driver; the issue here is that the Guide, used by judges to justify non-authenticity deductions, has taken a definite stand when the issue is not at all clear. I can certainly send you a photo of my car (now in an attractive colour combination of Pale Primrose and shop dirt).

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Submitted by SE98-32482CJ on Sun, 12/04/2005 - 20:42

I mention 2.4 cars as many Mk2s were built in that size. They are still Mk2s so any generalization to the model includes them so in fact you did mention them.

I made the comment on 240/340 cars as there are two distinct variations of these models. This is not a red herring as if "all 340" models faced that way and the 340 in question is actually a badged MK2 then there is further evidence of the problem.

I here your statement that Jaguar canada ordered cars "fully equipped" but that statement can not be true. That assumes they took no orders from catalogues which they did. My son for example has a MK2 (badged 340) that was ordered with fograngers, wire wheels, a standard trans but NO Overdrive. It was a special order.

A parts cat. is a prime source but there are many other sources thatI have pointed out to you in the past. Service bulletins/ Parts bulletins/ information bulletins/ year model catalogues etc. Devices and options changed from model year to model year. Broad statements to any model can not be made for the full run of that model.

George Camp

Submitted by v12-vdp@shaw.ca on Sun, 12/04/2005 - 19:51

George: I assume that the last message was directed to me. If so, in response:

1) the Parts Book I am using is the "Spare Parts Catalogue for Jaguar 3.4 and 3.8 litre and '340' Mark 2 Models", publication J.34, published April 1964, re-issued March 1972.

2) I made no mention of the 2.4 car, so I am not sure why you do.

3) You mention the 240/340issue as though it were germane to my argument. It is not. I am not concerned with the slim-bumpered cars in regard to the tell-tale issue since all agree that they were fitted with the flat face of the tell-tales facing the driver. And all agree that they did not have the Fogranger lights as standard fitment. I am concerned with the earlier Mark 2 to 1966. Throwing in red herrings merely muddies the waters!

4) Jaguar Canada ordered cars "fully equipped" (they almost always carry more standard equipment than the US versions). In any case, I am not sure how your comments in any way alter what I have said. The Parts Catalogue lists American-specification cars as *the exception* to the norm. My sole point here is that the Canadian cars, like the UK cars, are NOT the exception, and that they have the full equipment load. If the Parts Catalogue is the *primary source*, I can only ask, what more would one need to prove this point?

Gregory Andrachuk
1992 Series III V12 Vanden Plas
1966 Mark 2 3.8
2002 X-Type

Submitted by SE98-32482CJ on Sun, 12/04/2005 - 16:48

George please state which version of these manuals you are using. Example such as page 273 or plate 83 on page 271 of J34 published March 1972. There were several issues of manuals and all do not reflect the exact same nomenclature or part numbers. As far as your assertion that "all" other cars had fog rangers I once again remind you that the 2.4 MK2 was a base line car. Further I remind you that in the case of Canada, Jaguar Canada ordered the cars as they saw fit for resale. It was a pull system not a push system. The remains of Jaguar Canada were sent to the US archives in the last couple of years. I would suggest that records of ordering be sought there as well as other specific requiremeents for Canada. While we are at it the 240/340 term is being used as though the models are distinct. George did a good job of making the point that there are more than a few 340 cars for example that are in fact Mk2s that are just badged 340. They carry a Mk2 serial number that is in continuation of the range. You are talking about slim bumpered cars but others may not be making that distinction. George Camp