The Delegates Made Me Do It

Edited on 2008-10-09 16:30:24

Judges giving roadworthiness opinions may be going too far without mechanic's insurance/licence/training ... Judges have enough on their plates ...

What brand of stogies ... ?

Lokun

".......before I drive to a judging event, I spray my engines with some starter fluid which doesn't affect any paint, hose them off, and wipe them down only to show respect to the judges in other car clubs' driven categories. Never had an issue with "dust"........."

Guess I'd best not stand close with my stogie when you're spraying the engine bay with ether.

Hope your plug wires are all nice and tight......

Hosing down an engine bay.
At least two of the cars you list as owning are computer controlled, and the last thing recommended with those is "hosing down" the engine bay.

Dan,
Frayed hoses, fuel leaks, coolant leaks, and other issues are a matter of road worthiness and, if detected by the judging, will assist the owner in getting those issues taken care of.
Dust, etc. on the engine and in the engine bay should not be an issue, but years of accumulated neglect ought to be!
If really bad, before I drive to a judging event, I spray my engines with some starter fluid which doesn't affect any paint, hose them off, and wipe them down only to show respect to the judges in other car clubs' driven categories. Never had an issue with "dust" affecting point deductions.
Respectfully,

Edited on 2008-10-01 12:15:21

Just did take a nice I long, ride in 150-S that runs a like a champ and looks like total sh**. This 50 year old car did not miss a beat and appeared to be holding its own with the brand new Elise we were cruising with in the stares dept. .... Jaguars really are "chicken soup for the soul" cars ...

D-Class fans (my wife's XJ-S is a perennial D Class entrant) will not like the "joke" reference ... As I see it, an engine bay inspection for cleaniness and authenticity is NOT really an indicator of roadwortiness either. Having done it on a XK Engine, I am not keen on detailing a V-12 engine for a Concours and hats off to those that do.

D Lokun
90-XJS ... D08-A

Guys,

We are a car club let's remember this and just enjoy the cars.
Who really cars about the driven class anyway? It is a joke to say the least! I understand "driven" to be a class of cars that are driven, and therefore safe to be driven. These cars are NEVER judged on these merits. As long as they are shiny and the "visible" is clean, the car is a winner.
Driven class cars need to be judged for their roadworthiness. Are there fuel, oil, or coolant leaks, worn hoses or cables, etc. This would make the driven class truly worth it.
As long as the roadworthiness doesn't become part of judging, who cares what cars are entered in the class. Just go out drive your car and let it be admired by as many people as possible.

Steve,

In reading your response to Bob Lovell on the ÔÇ£AGMÔÇØ thread which you initiated recently, you raise several interesting questions. I assume that you are talking about the infamous trailering rule vote at the 2008 AGM. This discussion is important because of its implications for future AGM voting.

With regard to proxy voting in general at the AGM, unless delegates and voting members are able to confer with the clubs they represent before they vote, how do you, and they, know that the vote they cast reflects the interests of the members they represent? In the case of the trailering rule vote, it has since been ruled that the trailering rule amendment was introduced from the floor and was not germane to the existing rule. How then could the subsequent proxy votes have possibly reflected the interests of the absent members since they had absolutely no idea what was being voted on?

Much of the concern expressed by the membership has to do with the fact that the vote took place at all. To remedy this concern and to restore a modicum of harmony and good will, wouldnÔÇÖt it be a good idea to implement the following suggestions made by Ms. Gloette Hess, the Parliamentarian who reviewed the trailering rule vote at your request. In her opinion, she said: ÔÇØThere are rules for the AGM that you [may] wish to consider in the future, as an example: that all rules changes will be submitted to delegates 30 days in advance of the meeting or no new business may be considered at the meeting without the approval of ?¥ affirmative vote of the assembly.ÔÇØ

IÔÇÖm also posting this on ÔÇ£The Delegates Made Me Do ItÔÇØ thread, since that is where this discussion began.

The thing that caught my eye in the magazine was the reference to driving to a meet in summer in a car with no A/C.

How, pray tell, did they do it when the cars were new?
Did they "trailer" new cars to avoid the heat?

I've been driving manual steering, manual transmissioned, no power 4-wheel drum braked Flathead Fords since 1965, and they came with the same 4-40 A/C my MK2 has.
4 windows open, 40 miles per hour.
And, yes, I've driven through Kansas.

Yowza mr. Kennedy,
You just answered the problem. Your position never required that the primary objecive was to make members happy, the prime objective is to follow the already established rules.

I bear you no ill will personally but your behavior regarding this issue has been cavalier at best. I do remember putting in a few calls to you,....which were never returned. Coincidentally, that was the same type of response from those that supported the measure. There were very few who stood up and proudly mentioned their vote in the affirmative......until it was mentioned that others had "witnessed" their vote.

Maybe a "secret" ballot should be used?

No AGM for me this year maybe in the future. Attending something where the rules are so elastic is neither a good use of my time or funds.

Depending on the coming "rule changes" I might have to rethink my own membership.
Not crazy about the Championship-Lite Class.
Good Health to You and Yours, Bob Lovell

A Regional and National version would nice (ie best aggregate score in sanctioned
events). Alot of our club concours trophies (ie best champ, best driver) are dealer sponsored.

Regards,

D Lokun

Hi Dan,
sometimes we need other marque cars to help pay for track rentals, also these guy's see what our cars can do and often aspire to becoming a Jaguar owner. After all how many 4,000 lb cars are there that can perform as well as a XJR or a modified Silver S......... I do not see many out here .........Great award you have there , wish I was in the area to have a shot at it............I have two more road race solo one events here @ " The River's Edge " before winter shut down....

Edited on 2008-09-16 17:13:07

Get the Jags out for any reason. The public goes nuts ... I was in a XK150 which is in poor condition but was still stopping traffic for its lines (I hope anyway) .... My concern is too many other models showing uop at our Slalom (Miata, Audi, etc). Was a bad year ... lots of rain.

Our local club has a dealer-sponsored trophy for the most active car ... Winners need best global score in concours and slalom plus points for attendance at club runs ...

D Lokun

Drive the cars, race the cars, even Sir William had a go and won ......it is more fun driving than polishing for most of us really, the track may not be for everyone but for some of us it is a lot of fun........ Art

Guys,

All this rule change will do is reduce the value of our cars over time. If our cars aren't seen about, the next generation will not have a chance to fall in love with our cars and this will keep these beauties off their list of choice possessions. This is precisely why the value of most CCCA cars have seen a steady decline over the years.
Our cars were designed to be driven, and drive them we should! Enjoy and let others (especially the young ones) enjoy the beauty of these cars.
I don't know about you, but I fell in love with classic cars by seeing one on the road in Manhattan. I was about 7, and made sure thereafter that my career choices would afford me these toys!!

Safe driving.

It may be a pretty impossible job. However seriously distorting an original proposal carefully considered by the Concours Rules Committee is unacceptable, or so it appears to the majority of persons responding to this Driven Class Ruling......
Sincerely, Art

Dave and Yowza Bob,
I suggest you both run for director of your respective regions, then compete against one another for the position of president. You can then be the ones who have to guard the bylaws and make sure everyone is happy at the same time.

I look forward to seeing both of you at the 2009 AGM in Denver.

Steve Kennedy

Yowza All,
As an aside...

Our Club like many decided to add a n "Enthusiast Division". The reponse was surprising. Between Championship Division and the new Championship-Lite, ah, I mean Driven Division, Enthusiasts had more entrants.

Unless Driven Class is restored back with or without the original suggestion for trailering I doubt the class will survive. Once Driven dies from lack of participation the number of judges will follow and the Championship Class is going to have trouble making up the difference.

I like BOTH classes but as an observation..... the Championship Class seems to have a lot more headaches associated with it than driven especially now that some of the restorations are really "rolling 401K plans". The entrants are far less tolerant on the issues and some of them are not well-versed in their own machinery when it comes to correctness. Been told many a time, "can't be wrong, I spent all this money, my guy is the best" etc, etc and so on.

Good Health to All, Bob Lovell

Yowza Dave,
I'm been told by one of the "originators" of the ruling that was bastardized, that "from now on" there will be a Parlimentarian at the AGM.
It obviously is a tender point for Steve Kennedy and it should be! I would've thought his "duties" as President would've been to UPHOLD the rules that the club had already PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED. Obviously that's not the case. He dances around the whole issue like Bill Clinton being asked about the infamous blue dress.
The correct procedure was indeed followed for ignoring the rule. Yes, you read that correctly. Fine print seems to stipulate that the rules are to be followed but if someone makes a motion to actually "do" something irregular it must be questioned at the time it was raised, not after. That fine print needs to be addressed at the next AGM.
You can see examples of this happening in all sorts of bad ways at town meetings. Some polilticians at different levels make a point of abusing this aspect and this is an example of how it's done.
Joe Selectman makes a motion to publish a legal announcement in the local paper. The town has previously ruled that all legal announcements must be published 7 days prior to the event. Joe Selectman has a few "citizen supporters" here we call them "hacks" that are attending the same meeting. Joe makes the improper rule of a 1-day published announcement, Harry the Hack as a "concerned citizen" seconds it and it is voted on very quickly most times with NO discussion. Now, if no one in the group says this is improper, the motion is carried through. It happens time and time again and will happen again at the AGM again I'll guarantee it.
No Parlimentarian is going to be so well voiced in our rules that he'll catch everything. Remember, if it's not disputed right then and there it will go through whether or not we have a Parlimentarian !!!!.
The best rule change would be to make a motion that "absolutely no changes to the current JCNA rules will take place via non-Parlimentary procedure. Rules made improperly would be subject to being rescinded once found to be illegitimate" .
In other words, we won't allow something to slip because of a technicality.
I called a majority of the regional office holders and were amazed at what I heard on both sides of the issue. It did seem that those who were against the ruling were more honest in their feelings based on the way some officers were practicing telling the truth via the "sin of omission" example. One of our elected officers refused to answer my calls. A certified letter was sent, which he refused on the grounds I was rude. He makes a good point but the bottom line was he refused to take my call or call back and he is an officer of the club from which I am a member. I don't resort to name calling until I'm ignored.
I still have my letter that he refused all three times. It's a trophy to the arrogance that was displayed by him and other's regarding this issue.
Yeah, You Could Say I'm Still Aggrivated.....Bob Lovell

The initial proposal would have probably been more acceptable than the ammended proposal made by "who",
Regards, Art

Yes, it was by the amendment from the floor that the controversy ensued.

The silver lining that our President should take some solace from is that both the Concours Rules and the AGM process (dry stuff ordinarily I imagine) were shown to be of matters of great import to the Membership (or at least those Members who post here).

Regards,
D. Lokun
Mk IX, etc.

Dan,
Jerry Ellison, President of the Carolina Jaguar Club at the time, submitted a proposal at the 2008 AGM very similar to the suggestion you have made today. Here is Dr. EllisonÔÇÖs proposal in its entirety:

ÔÇ£If, in the interest of increasing attendance, JCNA were to allow limited Driven Division trailering, the following criteria might be considered:

1) Challenge Championship or Regional events only
2) The Entry must be at least 30 years old
3) The Entry must have a recent history of Driven Division competition
4) The Entry must certify that the event is more than 400 miles from where the Entry
is normally garaged."

Dr. EllisonÔÇÖs proposal represented a reasonable compromise in that it supported those in the Driven Class who would not have been able to participate in distant JCNA sanctioned events unless they could trailer their vehicles. At the same time it preserved the fundamental integrity of the Driven Class by setting forth clear and limited requirements for trailering vehicles to specific events.

Such a remedy would have been in effect for the 2008 Concours season only and would have been subject to review at the 2009 AGM. Data could have been collected during the year to determine whether the relaxed trailering requirements had increased attendance as desired.

Unfortunately Dr. EllisonÔÇÖs proposal was not voted on. Instead, a lapse in parliamentary oversight allowed an amendment that was not germane to the existing rule in question to be voted on and approved, thus permitting the trailering of all Driven Division vehicles for the 2008 Concours season. The result has been a needlessly divisive and, at times, bitter struggle within the JCNA family, which could easily have been avoided

Edited on 2008-09-10 14:58:17

Edited on 2008-09-10 12:52:26

I don't think the BoD should do anything.

The AGM should remain pre-eminent over the BoD.

I suspect that the "class-war" issue will be tweaked at the 2009 AGM to preserve both the driving element of the the D-class along with a more reasonable accomodation (more reasonable meaning more restricted) limited to loooong distance trailering of older cars for D-class presentation.

I hazard a guess to say that it was local or new(er) cars being trailored that was the source of concern for Member/Forum commentators as no-one really expects an SS-100 or Mark V to drive across the US to enter a show in either of C or D classes ...

Having just flat-bedded a XK-150S that stalled in traffic due sparking issues on its shakedown run for a slalom the next day, I would really need to trailer such a car rather than drive it between cities (and this is NO Champ Class car either). Note also that several, local Jaguars had some "trouble" getting to the Indianapolis event and back home ....

D Lokun
(Looking at a 62 XKE Coupe that supposed to black but ain't and won't
start for sure), etc.

Hi Dave,
regardless of how the membership feel about this item, it appears nothing will be done by the BOD at this juncture.
I am sure someone will at least be preparing to solve this issue one way or the other @ the next AGM.
A change this extreme surely should have been available for discussion before the last AGM, at least the delegates could have discussed it with their Regional Members.
The North West Region specifically has a get together to discuss items such as these and take direction from their membership accordingly. Perhaps other Regions should have such gatherings to talk over upcoming issues prior to the Annual JCNA AGM.
For sure there should be a cut off date for major items such as the trailering of Driven cars.
Regards, Art Dickenson.