Concours Judging

Patrick. I was not demeaning anyone, any particular region or any person. I was just stating a fact that some regions tend to mark far more liberally than others. I have nothing to apologize about and nothing to retract. I stand by what I said.

That incidentally was the whole reason I started this thread. For example the highest score given to any car that attended either of the two shows held in Ontario, Canada was 99.91 and that was for a 2003 X type the majority of the scores were less than 99.00. In the driven classes the highest score was 9.97 with the majority of the remaining cars relegated to the 9.8. Yet when checking the scores as registered on the JCNA site we can find one set there that reflects that out of the 27 odd cars that attended only three were awarded scores of less than 99.16. Not one of the driven cars scored less that 9.9. Now does that reflect that the judging in Ontario Canada is too tough or that the others are too liberal. You tell me.

Just in case anybody else gets offended. I am not trying to suggest that these scores are right or wrong. I am also not intending to pick on anybody or any club. I am just using them as an example of the inequity with the standards of judging used by each club throughout the JCNA.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

Pascal; my apologies to you and the forum readers. I'm finished.

Patrick McLoad

guys.. I don't think we're here to throw insults or acusations at each other... let's cool it down a litlle... please..

thks!!!

Pascal Gademer
JCNA webmaster / forum admin

No, I am not happy. It was YOU that made the blanket accusation against an entire region, but you do not have the nads to back it up nor the courtesy to retract it.

Patrick McLoad

Patrick. You dont sound happy...Perhaps an easy way to answer you would be to say that it has never happened anywhere near where I live. I have never seen a perfect score given at anytime to any car, resident or visitors.. I still hold out hope that one day I will be lucky enough to see a miricle happen first hand.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

No Bob, you didnÆt insult just anyone; you insulted an entire region of JCNA members. Exactly what region were you referring to Bob? And what does " itÆs just the way it is" suppose to mean?

Patrick McLoad

Then exactly which region were you referring to?

Patrick McLoad

Let me remind YOU in particular that the ONLY car at the Championship Challenge in Phoenix to score a perfect 100 points.

Patrick. I was not trying to insult anyone. Least of all somebody I dont know and have no idea what region they are from, its just the way it is.

I also have to bring to your attention that the above statement goes a long way to giving credence to my point. If you are right and the very esteemed Judges at Phoenix saw fit to award only one car a perfect score out of all of those shown, why do we see so many handed out on other occasions. This was to my understanding the cream of the cream being shown in this Championship challenge.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

Bob, there will never be consistant judging until the human element can be removed. The next best thing we could hope for would be a single team of JCNA (as opposed to club) trained judges roving North America and judging each show, so that ALL cars are seen and judged by the SAME eyes. Then and only then will you hold 2 or 3 scoresheets in your hand and see the same deductions.

I'll once again use a softball analogy. If you play one or to games you may be infuriated when the umpire makes a "bad call". Heck, his mistake it may even cost you the game. However, if you play six or ten or twenty ball games you'll soon find out that your team is the grateful beneficiary of the "bad calls" just as often as it falls victim to them. Until umpires are created with perfect eyes and no (intentional or unintentional, malicious or benign) prejudices, coaches, fans, and players just have to deal with them. I'm afraid the same applies to the judges of each Jaguar club.

But, that analogy is perhaps relevent only from a points or "winning" aspect. It doesn't address the issue of improving your car as the result of other eyes viewing it to find faults. Now, in consideration of that aspect, wouldn't you *want* to see different items on each scoresheet? If you car was judged five times would you really want each judge to find only the same items that the previous judges had already seen and made note of ? Of course not ! If you want your car to be the best it can be then surely five judges, each finding different faults, is of more value than five judges all finding then same items. (This assumes that you even *could* find five judges all seeing the exact same faults...highly unlikely.)

As for receiving deductions and getting no explanation what they are for, well, I agree....that's wrong and it has happened to me a few times. As some judges remain totally silent during the show, you must depend on your scoresheet to learn what faults needs correcting. When the scoresheet arrives 2-3 weeks later with no notes of any kind it is impossible to know *exactly* what the judge saw that prompted the deduction. This issue has come up before although I can't recall if any decisions were made as to how the problem should be addressed.

Anyhow.....

Yes, the judging system is flawed is some respects but I can't see any way of changing it short of monumental overhaul, which I don't see happening and, frankly, am unsure is even called for. But, you know me.....the eternally laid-back Bohemian. I gave up judging the judges a long time ago :-)

Doug Dwyer
JDRC/NWA
1987 XJ6 III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

"I guess if I had happened to be lucky enough as some of you are to reside in one of the regions that seem to award cars 100 points or perfect scores like candies at a childrenÆs party."

Well there it is. Thanks for the jab, Bob! Look who's throwing insults now? Let me remind YOU in particular that the ONLY car at the Championship Challenge in Phoenix to score a perfect 100 points was an AUSTIN, TEXAS car. Do you think they were handing out candy at THAT show Bob? Do you think the judging was LAX at that show, BOB?

So like my hero Dick Cheney says, go .........!

I no longer care about your "problems".

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster

"I guess if I had happened to be lucky enough as some of you are to reside in one of the regions that seem to award cars 100 points or perfect scores like candies at a childrenÆs party."

Well there it is. Thanks for the jab, Bob! Look who's throwing insults now? Let me remind YOU in particular that the ONLY car at the last Championship Challenge to score a perfect 100 points was an AUSTIN, TEXAS car. Do you think they were handing out candy at THAT show Bob? Do you think the judging was LAX at that show, BOB?

So like my hero Dick Cheney says, go .........!

I no longer care about your "problems".

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster

"I guess if I had happened to be lucky enough as some of you are to reside in one of the regions that seem to award cars 100 points or perfect scores like candies at a childrenÆs party."

Well thank you very much for that jab Bob. Look who's throwing insults now!!! Let me remind YOU that the ONLY perfect 100-point score at the last Championship Challenge went to an AUSTIN, TEXAS car. So like Dick Cheney says ...........!

I longer care what your problem is.

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

Wow this started by my making a suggestion about improving or creating uniformity throughout the JCNA regions. It suddenly turns into throwing insults at each other. Geez I am now really sorry I started this and can now certainly understand clearly why nothing ever changes.

I wish I could be more like Doug Dywer, take in all in stride and just look at it as if I am competing with myself. This becomes very difficult because when I try to use the judging sheets that are sent to me they dont tell me what I need to know about my car. They become more like a guessing game of "what did he mean by that deduction". It is made even more difficult when, as I have now, three judging sheets in front of me from this year and not one is the same. Nothing consistent about any of them with the exception of one common deduction that appears on two out of the three sheets. Problem with that one is that nobody that has looked at my car since can figure out what it is for.

I guess if I had happened to be lucky enough as some of you are to reside in one of the regions that seem to award cars 100 points or perfect scores like candies at a childrenÆs party. I probably would not have bought the subject up. However I live in a region that counts stones chips whether they are fixed or not. In addition to them energetically exercising a strict adherence to the authenticity rules.

My car is a pure driven car. (I would love somebody to explain to me how a genuine driven car could legitimately ever score a perfect score). Last year I put 22,800 on the clock and I take great pride in the way I look after it. It is completely original and I did the restoration of it all by myself. I dont drive it every day as it shares duty with two of my other cars. I try to keep them all exercised except in the winter and I admit during that time, it resides in the garage. I would give just about anything to have my car consistently judged by really competent judges. The results would really mean something to me and I could then agree with Doug that the results would give me the opportunity to complete with myself and have less focus on the overall results.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

Okay, I stand corrected. But your first post indicated otherwise.

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

Gee Patrick, better do your homework. I happen to be currently leading my class in my region and overall stand third in my class in the country. I clearly can and did afford to compete and I was motivated to restore my car to a level that is competitive. I have had my car judged fairly every time I've shown it and have never once complained about my scores or deductions with the exception of cases where I wasn't clear what the deduction was for, so that I could make it better next time.

That doesn't mean however that I find everything about concours perfect. I would have been perfectly happy with JUST the comments as for me it is an obsessive desire to have my car original just because I want it original. The scores are frankly irrelevant and will continue to be as long as the same car is scored differently at different events and the same wrong item or flaw is scored differntly event to event.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

I have found that it is usually the case that those who speak out against competitive events such as national concours...in any make of car...are usually those who CAN'T compete for whatever reason (usually lack of money and/or lack of motivation), and don't like it because others can and do.

Borders, Language, Culture

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445

http://users.ev1.net/~mcload/Reliant%20Jag.jpg

Right. "Precise scoring" and "National winners", etc may be silly to some, but concours events have been integral with car clubs (and the car hobby in general)for decades. As a result JCNA and local clubs hold concours events to accomodate those members who feel it *is* important. And, even among those folks there is quite a wide variance as to how seriously the competition is taken. Some compete only with themselves, some are deadly serious, some are rather aloof about the whole deal. As a rule, though, those competing in concours events want to continually improve their car and enjoy the recognition of their efforts....recogntion which comes in the form of a high score. And, I know for a fact that many owners of high-scoring cars view this as a personal achievement, with less, if any, emphasis that their car is better or "more perfect" than the next guy's.

If anyone is not "into" scores and competition they can elect not to participate. I know some people who love a neighborhood softball game and they never keep score....they just love to be there out on the field playing the game with other softball enthusiasts. The "display only" option is the JCNA equivalent.

Doug Dwyer
JDRC/NWA
1987 XJ6 III
1988 XJS V12 Coupe

it matters because it matters to the hundred of members who compete each year for a north american or regional trophies.

it's not my cup of tea so i'm not in the best position to explain why it matters to these members. JCNA needs to cater the needs of most of the members and I thnk that's what is currently going on.

I feel that declaring a regional and national champ. helps motivate more members to retore their cars and keep them in top shape. it also encourages members to participate and go to other coucours in their region. It may not do it for me of for you, but it does for a significant numbers of members

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Pascal,

I agree that I can just opt out of the concours by entering as a display only car. However, with respect, as I know you only by reputation and it is stellar, how does this address any of the "problems" with concours judging?

Again I ask, what PURPOSE does declaring a regional and national champion serve? Why is it important or necessary? Why does it matter which 100 point, over-restored car (and anyone who argues cars that win national and regional championships are not and do not HAVE to be BETTER than Jaguar ever built is truly delusional) is the "most perfect"?

I will drop out of both concours and this conversation at this point as I clearly do not understand how concours as they currently exist promote anything positive.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

I don't agree that overall members are getting "tired" of particpating in concours. looking at our own club, particiaption has been up over the past few years and we're now averaging abou 50 entrants.

don't forget that it is the local clubs who organize the concours and they will have the biggest impact on participation. we try to make fun by having an attractive location and make it more into an annual party than a formal event. it seems to work for us. It doens't mean that we dont' take the judging process seriously for those who are interested, we certainly do, but we are also going after the members who don't care much about a trophy and encourage them to participate, in Driven or even Display.

The current system doens't exclude anyone... any member is welcome to enter in display class, just like they woudl do at a non judged show.

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKR Coupe
99 XJR

Just a couple of thoughts and questions if you please?

First, why do we have concours? Or more precisely, why do we have judged contests with precise scores? The scores obviously only exist so that one car can be declared the "winner" over another. In what way does assigning a score "promote the preservation and restoration of older Jaguars"? How many 100 point trailer queens can't be driven five miles? Would a sheet without the scores but with the comments tell me any less about what my car needs to be more original?

Why do people want so badly to win a regional or national championship or to even declare one car the winner? How does that promote a broader appeal or encourage more people to participate?

Only when we uncouple the restoration and preservation of these cars from the business of restoration and sales (you need only look at the way high profile auctions prominently display / push JCNA results to link the two) do I beleive that the judging and the hobby (it is supposed to be a hobby isn't it?) will get back to it's original intent. I get MORE enjoyment showing my car at a non-Jaguar event where the "uninformed" simply enjoy the car for the beautiful form and function that Lyons created than for the fact that the washers under the intake stud nuts are correct.

I know that we all want to some extent some gratification and affirmation of our efforts. However, why the need to quantify it so exactly? Why do we NEED to declare a regional and national champion? Why is this about winning and not about enjoying the cars?

If I sound anti-concours, I'm not. I do see however fewer and fewer people having fun and more and more worrying, arguing and generally having a miserable time over "whether or not that clamp should be turned 15 more degrees to the left". Is "winning" more important than caring about the cars to begin with? It begins to get just a little bit silly and inane.

Jeff Klein
1970 OTS, BRG

Bob: Absolutely no reason to apologize, and I wasnÆt hammering on you for bringing up the topic. Actually, airing it out once in awhile is a good thing.

My point is that finding qualified and knowledgeable judges year after year can be difficult, especially for some of the older classics. I mean cÆmon, how many SS-100 experts are available, or will be available in the future? As the decades progress, the same attrition will occur for XK-120, 140, and 150Æs. Heck, I canÆt even tell you how many 150Æs IÆve ever seen in Texas, much less judged. So as a result, the car is judged for cleanliness and condition, and originality takes a backseat. The good thing is that there is a system where someone can protest an originality deduction.

Last year and the year before that, I was the ONLY Houston member who made every JCNA concours show in Texas (Dallas, San Antonio, Austin, and Houston). And from those other cities, I can only count one or two that make the entire circuit as well. Everyone else just shows their cars at their own respective concours and they donÆt worry about national points. So how much ôexposureö to Champ Class cars does the average member get when he/she only attends one concours per year? As we both know, a majority of folks will enter the driven class and nary an open bonnet will be seen. So much for knowing whether a bolt head should be painted or not! In each club (of usually 100), there is a tiny percentage of those who have involved themselves in the KNOWLEDGE of what is right and what is wrong on a particular model...right down to slotted screw versus posi-drive. So when my E-Type is in competition, I cannot judge the ONLY model that IÆve spent a lifetime studying and that I know inside and out....IÆm relegated to judging Mark 9Æs or some other obscure saloon of which I know absolutely nothing about (in regards to authenticity).
Sure, I can judge another series E-Type, but they have their own ôanomaliesö as well. So should I immerse myself in Series 3 E-Types or Mark 9 Saloon cars just so I can judge them? AinÆt going to happen...and IÆm a hard and fast Jaguar nut. So what makes me think that the CASUAL club member...one who only shows once a year in driven division...is going to take the time to research and study a particular model so that he/she can be a qualified judge, especially in Champ class?

How many young folks do we see entering the club with E-Types and 120Æs? Damn few. Odds are, they are coming in with XJS, S, and X-types. And theyÆre not that young....they are accomplished professionals with little free time on their hands. So you see itÆs just a natural change. The old soldiers just fade away, along with 50Æs music and bell-bottoms. I know, I know...I sound jaded....but I expect the same is true all around the country (save the NW) in all different makes of car clubs. There was a time (I suppose) in the 50Æs where a bunch of guys would get together with their cars and fix them up, hang out at the burger place, etc. But in 2004, I donÆt see it with Jaguars here locally. Perhaps the city is too big and everyone is too busy (or itÆs just too darn hot!).

I have to compliment Steve on what sounds like a great system he has going up there. I wish that kind of energy and enthusiasm existed here, I truly do. I would like nothing better than spending Saturday nights with a few friends and their Jags. The folks in our club are among the finest class of people one could ever hope to meet, and IÆm hoping my son will develop his own regard for yesterdayÆs classic car. But I just donÆt know where the EXPERT judges are going to come from in the coming decade.

By the way, I didnÆt mean to insinuate that our concours is dead here in Texas...on the contrary they are growing. But the issue is qualified judges; not concours attendance. My apologies for the long dissertation.

Best Regards
Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster

PS: I agree with Steve that things ARE improving given the advent of the E-Type judging guides, the JCNA website, and the internet in general. I have yet to see any audio-visuals being offered. But again, there are sooo many different models! But on the judging field, there needs to be 8x10 color photographs of every aspect of a correct car for every model in the event of a dispute. And, a judge only has 15 minutes!! (Do you really use a whistle? ;-)

The Judges Education Tools:
We need all we can get! The judgeÆs guides are very helpful and more are in the making, which is a good thing. The new videos that Gary Hagopian advocated and produced with the help of Hal Kritzman and others are also a giant step in the right direction. The internet is now available and judging questions can be answered via the JCNA Forum with answers given within a day. ItÆs a great time to be a JCNA Concours Judge. Why not volunteer today and start working on the program/s betterment from within by learning to be the best judge you possibly can?
rest of the page:

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

Bob,
IÆm happy to report that Concours is alive and well in most of the Northwest RegionÆs Clubs. As a member of the JCRC, I make it a point to try to attend as many of the regionÆs concours as possible so that I can talk to judges and entrants and get a good feel for whatÆs happing in the region. I think I speak from knowledge gained by experience and observation. This is not to say that our programs donÆt need improving, but things are getting much better very fast. Some of the things that I have observed that work:

Selecting a Chief Judge:
The Chief Judge must be very dedicated, know the rulebook and the JCNA Concours program, and have outstanding organizational skills (but does not necessarily need to know everything there is about every model of Jaguar û else why have judges?). He must have the respect of the judges. It helps to have restoration experience and be active in showing cars in order to understand the pain of the entrants. The Chief Judge must know the strengths and weaknesses of the judges that are under his/her charge, and he/she must be a good teacher. In my case, I have zero teaching skills, recognize it, and have created the position of Director of Judges Education and filled it with a retired teacher. It helps if the Chief Judge is willing to take on his position for a number of years. In my case IÆve been at it for 7 seasons, and have been comfortable (relaxed) in the position for the last 3. IÆve stuck with it because IÆve seen progress every year, although itÆs like a restoration, 3 steps forward and 1 or 2 backward. I still think I can contribute to the betterment of the program.

Selecting the Concours Chair and the Judging Schedule:
From my perspective, its a big mistake for the Chief Judge (or his wife or her husband) to also be the Concours Chair; these positions require a lot of work and often have conflicting goals. ItÆs best to have separate positions, but both people need to be able to work together û they are equals, but each has certain responsibilities that the other must respect. An advantage of this system is that if they are separate positions, and one resigns, the club is not in a big world of hurt; the remaining person kind of knows the otherÆs duties and can help train the replacement. In JOCO, the Concours Chair and I communicate by internet (and phone û we are 50 miles apart and the concours site is 50 and 100 miles away respectively). I start putting the teams together on the Judging Schedule around the first of the year, so everyone knows what kind of cars they will be judging, and have about 6 months to study if they have been assigned to cars they may not feel qualified for. I use the prior yearÆs entries as examples û the types and numbers of the entries donÆt change that much from year to year. I used to move people around just to mix things up a bit, but have learned that the fickle finger of fate makes my stirring things up unnecessary. Two days before the event, the Concours Chair fills in the entries below each team (so everyone knows what time they will be doing what) e-mails me the schedule for approval, and I make copies for distribution on the day of the event. We always have about 2 or 3 last minute changes that are easily accommodated by penciling in at the judgesÆ meeting. After the Concours, I make an ôActual Day of Event Scheduleö that becomes the club record of who entered and who judged what and when. A hidden advantage of this type of schedule is that if a scrutineer has a problem with a score sheet, I can look at the schedule to find what team the judge is on, then look at my watch to find out what time it is, and I can tell what group of cars he should be at - it takes just a few minutes to find the judge and have the scrutineerÆs question resolved in a 50 car concours. Oh, we use a refereeÆs whistle to maintain the 15 minute maximum judging time. Sometimes we have a whistle blower; other times, I blow the whistle.

Selecting Judges:
I make judging available to everyone that expresses an interest, i.e. I donÆt go around tapping people on the shoulder and asking them to judge. We announce our judgeÆs school in our newsletter way in advance, and anyone is invited to attend. It helps to have this in the same place and day and in conjunction with a popular car related event that most guys will attend anyway (about 20% of my judges are women and they make excellent judges û one is even a team leader). We hold our school every year right after a local All British Car Autojumble. In 2030 it will be on the last Sunday in April at 1:00PM right after the Autojumble. We have it at a local pub, and the refreshments are supplied by the club. Our club gives its judges a lot of support and itÆs kind of special to be a JOCO Certified Judge (you can almost tell by the way they walk û or by the special name badges and hats they wear). We now have about 30 certified judges and get about three new apprentices each year, our club has about 120 members. I need 21 judges (7 teams of three to do a 50 car concours); the rest are on be standby. I even have standbyÆs complaining that they wonÆt get to judge in the Concours. This year, on the day of our Concours, I had 1 standby on the field (weddings, reunions, and illness took their toll.) We spend a lot of time training our judges and our club is very good at the care and feeding of its judges (and Chief Judge).

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2 and other LBC's

I opologise then for bringing it up again.

Bob.
92 V-12-VDP Black Cherry #39
92 V-12-VDP Oyster #90
87 V-12-VDP
86 XJ6-Soveriegn
85 XJ6-VD

Hi Patrick,
You hit the nail right on the nose my friend and I agree 100% with your thoughts!
Bob Stevenson Jag of Mi.

Well, in my humble opinion, the reason for poor turn-out at concours doesn't have a thing to do with the quality of the judging; it's just changing times. The guys with the classics are getting burned-out from competing year after year. On average, those with the newer models drive their Jags on a daily basis and could care less about a concours car show. Perhaps they would like to come out and look at classics, but they are not interested in participating for a number of reasons (work to clean the car; can't do without it for a whole day, etc)

With the number of Jags you own Bob, you are obviously a huge Jaguar enthusiast, and naturally, the quality of judges is an important issue to you. But you're right, this issue has been beat to death, at least as long as I've been a member of JCNA (15 or so years). It seems like those who know their respective models the most are those who have restored them. I just don't personally see the level of restorations going on that I once did, partially because the older Jags have gotten so expensive to purchase and restore.

So with that said, I think the older soldiers are slowly fading away and the new ones don't have the motivation to study and research what's right and wrong. Add the sheer number of models (classifications), and the problem gets worse on a local level. Championship Challenge is a perfect place to bring the best cars and the best judges, but of course, that presents logistical and demographic problems.

I think the best solution would be an actual weekend school where a person is properly trained (and tested) to be a judge on a particular model. But that's not going to happen either. The judging guides are helpful, but they don't completely level out the field. Some sort of media presentation trah shows the most common problems could be helpful as well. Anyway, my 2 cents.

Patrick McLoad
1966 E-Type, Right-hand Drive Roadster
#1E1445